The poppy

[Rasputin]

I'll let you believe what you want to believe, but this reactionary and offensive post has pretty much proved my point.

You may want to look up what reactionary actually means before you use it in the wrong context again.
And yes that post has proven your point, im fairly sure you have won this round, until we meet again Batman.

[Gather round]

Look I used to mosey around Political forums and what not and even with a flawless grasp of dialectical materialism and perfect eloquence people never changed their minds

I regularly change my mind in response to others' arguments. Unfortunately, I tend to be less impressed by those who lazily assume I'm simply disagreeing with them because of a) my background and/ or b) some fixed obsession that I can't see beyond. BTW, when they start namedropping dialectical materialism I start to drop off. Stick to plain English, there's a good lad.

Ive read your arguement and it is deeply flawed. Critical or uncritical supporter of the Poppy it is irrelevant it is the symbol it has become that is up for debate

My argument- quite a simple one really, I don't pretend to feel that strongly on the issue- is that the Poppy Appeal is an effective and successful means of both honoring the dead and injured, and providing for their welfare and their dependents later in life. At the same time, I'm a critic of recent British governments' foreign and defence policies. To me, that distinction is hugely relevant. I also made clear early in the thread my discomfort with jingoism and the way the Military in Britain is becoming increasingly fetishised. Which part of that did you disagree with?

It is evident it is far far more than just a charity it is essentially a drum to beat in order to fire up good old fashioned British Jingoism of "support our boys" which essentially white washs any criticism of their imperial adventures

Earlier, you suggested it wasn't a charity at all. Good to see you prepared to give and take in the argument

If the intent of the jingoism we both mentioned is to whitewash any criticism of the Iraqi and Afghan Wars, then quite clearly it has failed- there has been consistent opposition to both in this country.

n concede in that point that it has become more than just a charity, was that not what this debate was essentially about?

Er, yes. I made clear from the start that I was uncomfortable with its non-charitable aspects; you weighed in that it wasn't a charity at all! In other words, we partly agree, I'm just making the point a bit less aggressively.

So quoting sales figures and its income is irrelevant since I would state that

The evidence I was quoted was clearly in aswer to the anecdotage provided by other posters, who seemed to be arguing that not only was the Poppy Appeal jingoistic, but commercially a failure. So it's obviously relevant to the thread even if not to whichever rant you plan to go off on next.

a very large proportion of those sales and income come from ignorants buying into the British Nationalism that they trumpet and not from some altruistic notion of supporting wounded vets

Got any evidence for that? Or are you just trying to be offensive for its own sake?

High sales figures does not automatically correlate that it is a charity

They show that it's popular and successful. It's self-evident that it's a charity.

Also as an aside I never once argued about what British Nationalism is or should be

Apart from when you described it above as "a very large proportion of those sales and income come from ignorants buying into the British Nationalism that they trumpet and not from some altruistic notion of supporting wounded vets", you mean? Your very obvious implication is that is warmongering in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[bennocelt]

Given that today is the actual anniversary, it's probably the right time to get back on topic, rather than get diverted by the merits or otherwise of the "war on terror". Perhaps if this had been the main symbol from day one, opinions wouldn't have become so heated.

Thats a great idea

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well more so than the patronising, pompous and largely pointless guff, immediately in its vicinity.

Which despite the distinction drawn, fails to acknowledge the connection still made by the Brits I've encountered who're still dispassionate about their 'British Legion' and the association they inevitably draw between this and the pointless jingoism of their futile conflicts worldwide.

[Billsthoughts]

The demobbed British soldiers were sent to Ireland after WWI to keep the locals in check. They became known as the black and tans. Bloostained poppy indeed.

From their wikipedia page -

"The Black and Tans were not subject to strict discipline in their early months in Ireland and as a result, their deaths at the hands of the IRA in 1920 were often repaid with arbitrary reprisals against the civilian population. In the summer of 1920, the Black and Tans burned and sacked many small towns and villages in Ireland, beginning with Tuam in County Galway in July 1920 and also including Trim, Balbriggan, Knockcroghery, Thurles and Templemore amongst many others. In November 1920, the Tans "besieged" Tralee in revenge for the IRA abduction and killing of two local RIC men. They closed all the businesses in the town and let no food in for a week. In addition they shot dead three local people. On 14 November, the Tans abducted and murdered a Roman Catholic priest, Fr Michael Griffin, in Galway. His body was found in a bog in Barna a week later. Finally, the Black and Tans sacked Cork city, on the night of 11 December 1920, the centre of which was burned out."

[EalingGreen]

Except that being in London (the capital of Britain) in the last fortnight have seen barely 100 punters wearing poppies out of thousands.

Are you sure it was London you were in? For it certainly doesn't sound like the one in which I reside:


Royal British Legion poppy collection smashes record
Londoners dug deep to raise more than £225,000 for the Poppy Appeal in just one day - smashing last year's record of £60,000.

About 400 fundraisers were stationed at transport hubs across London throughout the morning and evening rush hours and across lunchtime on Thursday.

The most money was raised at Canary Wharf where £29,027 was donated.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11708961

And when mentioned this subject to people, they have looked at me with a mixture of bewilderment or disinterest.

It's not just this subject, though, is it?

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think there might be some substance to Geysirs 'Poppy Facism' argument which he advances on the Bloo loo stained poppy thread.

I also think Dion Fanning put it well in the Indo today when he said if you make something like the poppy obligatory -you cheapen it.

It seems to me there is, as said elsewhere, a 'fetishism' that has snowballed about it in recent years where the media fuels public opinion which fuels the media in a vicious circle. Seemingly there's any number of complaints to all manner of programmes across the British channels if someone somehow manages to get onto a set without wearing one. If we're at the stage where X factor contestants are wearing one to tow the line or out of fear of offending voters then the thing has truly jumped the shark.

[ArdeeBhoy]

@ EG.

And your point is? Besides the obvious hypocrisy of what you allude to?

People I met just weren't interested in the poppy concept.
And whilst acknowledging those stats, all those purchasers were obviously too ashamed to wear them....the carnage perpetuated by the Brits in the last 65 years has something to with it!!

[EalingGreen]

@ EG.

And your point is?

I had hoped my point was obvious.
Namely, you asserted that people in London were "disinterested" etc (I assume you actually mean "uninterested") in wearing the Poppy, solely on the basis of your personal experience.
I published clear, verifiable evidence which directly contradicts your personal, anecdotal account.

Besides the obvious hypocrisy of what you allude to?

I don't understand this comment. What was the "hypocrisy" to which I am supposed to be alluding?

People I met just weren't interested in the poppy concept.

Maybe so, but that hardly proves anything, does it? How big was your sample? How widespread was it? Do you have any evidence to show that it was in any way representative of the people of London generally?
Indeed, is it not possible that these people are interested in the Poppy etc, just not interested in discussing it with you?
Anyhow, Gather Round has produced clear evidence that the Poppy Appeal in the UK continues to produce more revenue every year (even in a recession). Which must mean that more publicity is being generated, more volunteers are out collecting and more people are giving etc.
Of course, London being the must diverse* and non-homogeneous place in the UK, it is possible that that trend is not repeated in London.
However, the report I cited suggests otherwise.

* - Even then, you might be surprised at some of the people who support the Appeal: http://www.khuddam.org.uk/department...ppeal-0-50983/

And whilst acknowledging those stats,

Don't you mean: "Being entirely unable to deny those stats..."?

... all those purchasers were obviously too ashamed to wear them....the carnage perpetuated by the Brits in the last 65 years has something to with it!!

Nothing "obvious" about it - at least not from anything you have been able to adduce.
Be honest. You have been presented with undeniable evidence that more British people are donating more money than ever to the Poppy Appeal. This tears the arse out of the case you are trying to make, therefore you counter with something which is not capable of being proven either way, namely, that most of the 20 million-odd people who purchase a Poppy every year do not actually wear it.
You then extend this entirely fatuous claim as "proof" that this is because they are "ashamed" at the "carnage perpetuated by the Brits etc".
Any chance that you could explain the paradox that people are on the one hand "ashamed" of the British Armed Forces etc, whilst on the other hand giving ever more money to the premier Armed Forces Charity each year?
After all, it's not as if the RBL Poppy Appeal is the only Charity which exists to commemorate the UK's role in two World Wars.

[bennocelt]

The funny thing is if you watch the football in the UK, there is a good lot of the fans not wearing any poppies, but near 100% wearing on any tv show. Its a bit of a joke really, another lady Di moment for the British.
Anyway lads relax its over now for another year!!

[ArdeeBhoy]

What are you on about, EG?
You presume rather too much that anyone here is even remotely interested in your opinion.


Didn't conduct a scientific poll, because despite 'my prejudices', it wasn't necessary here.

In the capital city of Britain of a random cross-section of people seen (OK, mainly City workers, hardly known for 'revolutionary tendencies'), <10%, being generous, were displaying any sort of support for the Poppy Appeal.
Out of the 100 or so people I know here who I've encountered in the last fortnight or so, only three were wearing one.

There may well be facts saying that everyone in Britain bought one. But they certainly aren't bothering to wear them!
You say it can't be proven either way, hence why would any purchaser not wear it? Unless they were of course ashamed do so....

Doubtless they are all buying into the paradox to which you allude. Or more likely, they were never interested in the first place !

[Lionel Ritchie]

Didn't see any on Sunderlands shirts yesterday actually. I think it shows the madness of the thing that I noticed and found it remarkable. There's gonna be holy war next year when armistice day has to be reshuffled or take a year off. 11/11/11 is International Nigel Tufnel Day.

...though we could just make October one louder..

[Eminence Grise]

Thanks, LR. Was not going to bother reading this thread any more, but...

"How could I leave this behind?"

[Fixer82]

My great grandfather and great grand uncle fought in WW1 (the latter killed) but I would not wear a poppy for the life of me.
They didn't join up because of any affinity for the Queen or the Great Britain, they did it cos they were broke.

It's almost like a marketing campaign every November for the British Army these days with appearances on X Factor and Christmas single released for our heroes.

Now it's to show support for 'our boys in Afghanistan', in the 80s it was for 'our boys in Northern ireland'.
How an Irish Republican/nationalist could wear one astounds me giving the history the British Army have in this country.
And I wholeheartedly agreed with Green Brigade's protest, (even if they can't spell).
They support Celtic Football Club, that shouldn't mean they must support the British Army by default

Interesting reading here on RMK and the poppy:

http://www.wfcforums.com/archive/index.php/t-31097.html

ps Belfast Celtic - that's an honourable swap of badges with your friend from RIR. Shows nice mutual respect

[bennocelt]

By the way Roy did have his poppy on last weekend - so much for the big rebel from Cork

[backstothewall]

ps Belfast Celtic - that's an honourable swap of badges with your friend from RIR. Shows nice mutual respect

Assuming thats me. Mutual is the most important there. If the poppy fever in memory of dead British soldiers in November was reciprocated in memory of those who have died for Irish freedom at Easter, there would be no problem with the poppy. Trouble is i have never seen anyone wearing a lily in any workplace or in the media. Parity of esteem is crucial to all this.

[Lim till i die]

How many people in recent history have died for Irish freedom though?? 5000??

A tiny amount compared to the amount of Irishmen who died serving in the British Forces for whatever reasons.

Parity of esteem?? Should we all shake maracas for the Irishmen who died for Spanish Freedom??

Surely it should be a personal choice for people rather than parity of esteem being an issue

[backstothewall]

How many people in recent history have died for Irish freedom though?? 5000??

A tiny amount compared to the amount of Irishmen who died serving in the British Forces for whatever reasons.

Parity of esteem?? Should we all shake maracas for the Irishmen who died for Spanish Freedom??

Surely it should be a personal choice for people rather than parity of esteem being an issue

I didn't realise it was a body count. And in response to your fairly glib point Re: the Spanish Civil war, I would certainly consider the sacrifice of Irish soldiers resisting Franco in Spain to be covered by the Lily. How the facists wish to remember O'Duffy and his cohorts is up to them.

If there was truely a personal choice we wouldn't be discussing this. But we all know pressure is applied to people to comply with the poppy line, especially in public life.

[Lim till i die]

I didn't realise it was a body count.

I'd wager there's far more people with family connections to people who died fighting for Britain than Ireland is all I'm saying, therefore rather than them being on a par, would it not simply make more sense for the poppy to be more prevalent than the Lily??

On an aside did Eoin O'Duffy not fight for Ireland as surely as Frank Ryan did?? A different version of Ireland I grant you but is differentiating between them because of their political beliefs not a bit....... erm...... facist??

[backstothewall]

I'd wager there's far more people with family connections to people who died fighting for Britain than Ireland is all I'm saying, therefore rather than them being on a par, would it not simply make more sense for the poppy to be more prevalent than the Lily??

On an aside did Eoin O'Duffy not fight for Ireland as surely as Frank Ryan did?? A different version of Ireland I grant you but is differentiating between them because of their political beliefs not a bit....... erm...... facist??

More of my family fought for the British than for Ireland, and that is reflected in the nation as a whole, but then fighting for the British was much easier. We owe a heck of a lot more to the men and women who died for Ireland.

And no, its not facist. It might be deeply hypocritical but its something this country should be ashamed of. The arguement can be made, but by the same arguement the SS fought for Germany. If thats hypocritical, fine, call me a hypocrite.