16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

**Dodge** · 08/11/2011, 3:03 PM

Right, I wouldn't use Galway as an example of anything other than 'how not to build a team in 6 days while employing Sean Connor and wrestling boardroomingly with a convicted rogue trader'

And the chances of that happening again are only about 20%

**MagicMon** · 08/11/2011, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Should say, I didn't see the show, so I wasn't commenting on that. Did he use Galway as an example of a promoted side? They've spent the last 5 years in the premier...

Thats what happens when ex-pros get to talk abotu serious issues. They simply don't understand it from any angle other than their own

Tony O'Donoghue can do one, but the Sadlier stuff was quite insulting. Of course having players driving to games and all that isn't ideal, but its damn sight better than a club sp*nking its money away thinking they're in the Premiership and then not paying players what they're owed.

**Lim till i die** · 08/11/2011, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by MagicMon

Of course having players driving to games and all that isn't ideal

There's still clubs whos players have to drive to games?!

The thing about no promotion and relegation would be that every year you'd have two or three teams who are hard up doing a Galway.

They'd sit tight, spend nothing, take the couple of big gates against Rovers and go nowhere.

A one tier league could work if it's administrators and owners weren't in the large part gombeens.

Therefore it's probably not a good idea in any of our lifetimes.

**legendz** · 08/11/2011, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Lim till i die

There's still clubs whos players have to drive to games?!

The thing about no promotion and relegation would be that every year you'd have two or three teams who are hard up doing a Galway.

They'd sit tight, spend nothing, take the couple of big gates against Rovers and go nowhere.

A one tier league could work if it's administrators and owners weren't in the large part gombeens.

Therefore it's probably not a good idea in any of our lifetimes.

That's nearly a reason for a third tier or retaining the A Championship in some form if possible. What's to stop clubs laying dormant at the foot of the first divsion for a few years and not maintaining a standard? I don't want to get into that much though. What will be will be regards the league set-up.

**Sam_Heggy** · 08/11/2011, 4:15 PM

In fairness, lumping us into the Prem division would actually save the club.
Home gates against Derry, Rovers and Sligo would severely boost the coffers.
We're getting an average att of 433 as the 3rd bottom side in the 1st Div, at least if we were playing some of the big sides in the country there would be something to come out and see.
I wouldn't change our budget either.

Richard Saddlier is a gobsheen in honesty, giving out about Monaghan saving money was a bit feckin petit. On one hand he gives out about clubs house-keeping and on the other he questions them saving money. ****.

**culloty82** · 08/11/2011, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

That's nearly a reason for a third tier or retaining the A Championship in some form if possible. What's to stop clubs laying dormant at the foot of the first divsion for a few years and not maintaining a standard? I don't want to get into that much though. What will be will be regards the league set-up.

Surely though every club sets a target of climbing the league ladder from last season's position, also the new clubs would aim to finish a little higher than where they would be expected to. In other words, if Tralee get in, and know that 11th-12th place is probable in the first season, they'd aim to come 8th-10th. Finally, if any new clubs wish to join later, the First can always be expanded up to 16 teams.

**legendz** · 08/11/2011, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by culloty82

Surely though every club sets a target of climbing the league ladder from last season's position, also the new clubs would aim to finish a little higher than where they would be expected to. In other words, if Tralee get in, and know that 11th-12th place is probable in the first season, they'd aim to come 8th-10th. Finally, if any new clubs wish to join later, the First can always be expanded up to 16 teams.

I like the optimism that Tralee will be in a First Divison of 12! If they were, I'd see it as fair game that if they were finishing 12th that they'd have to at least take on the best club from the next lowest level in a play-off. It'd be hypocritical to be looking for a close league if we get in ourselves. Salthill finished the '10 season with a poor 15 points but they won their play-off against Cobh. It was a decent system with their league status retained on the field of play.

**Nah Nah Nah Nah** · 08/11/2011, 8:39 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

I like the optimism that Tralee will be in a First Divison of 12! If they were, I'd see it as fair game that if they were finishing 12th that they'd have to at least take on the best club from the next lowest level in a play-off. It'd be hypocritical to be looking for a close league if we get in ourselves. Salthill finished the '10 season with a poor 15 points but they won their play-off against Cobh. It was a decent system with their league status retained on the field of play.

Well it wouldn't have mattered if Salthill lost the game seeing as they got a First Division licence and Cobh didn't.

**lawman** · 08/11/2011, 9:06 PM

Every season we complain about the league and the viability of same but in reality in order for us to have a national team we have to have a national league, (EUFA rule I believe), so the prospect of the national league collapsing is never going to materialise. However, if YOU were a business person who was the owner of one of these clubs you would possibly close the doors seeing it as unsustainable. Very few if any make a profit at the end of each year.Football to us is a sport, a great sport, but in reality at national league level it is a business, bills to be paid etc.. So why are clubs not run as businesses by proper business people? Is it possible that football people do not have business brains or that business people do not see football as a business? Premiership clubs market their brand in a business manner so always have bums on seats. How come we have games with less than 50 people at them? Who didn't do their job of getting people through the turnstiles? Or is there someboby employed to do that job? I could do that if somebody wants to employ me... for payment of course....

**geezer** · 09/11/2011, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by lawman

Every season we complain about the league and the viability of same but in reality in order for us to have a national team we have to have a national league, (EUFA rule I believe), so the prospect of the national league collapsing is never going to materialise. However, if YOU were a business person who was the owner of one of these clubs you would possibly close the doors seeing it as unsustainable. Very few if any make a profit at the end of each year.Football to us is a sport, a great sport, but in reality at national league level it is a business, bills to be paid etc.. So why are clubs not run as businesses by proper business people? Is it possible that football people do not have business brains or that business people do not see football as a business? Premiership clubs market their brand in a business manner so always have bums on seats. How come we have games with less than 50 people at them? Who didn't do their job of getting people through the turnstiles? Or is there someboby employed to do that job? I could do that if somebody wants to employ me... for payment of course....

Business people have left clubs millions in debt and left Rovers & cork on their knees, thankfully the supporters direct philosophy is gaining ground, clubs in Ireland are about community and should go that route and thankfully it has started in the last few years with the result below for 2011 showing

Rovers won the league
Sligo won the cup
Cork won the 1st division

all supporter run clubs.. this is the future for the LOI forget about people who have no interest or understanding of our league

**lawman** · 09/11/2011, 3:25 PM

Business people have left clubs millions in debt and left Rovers & cork on their knees, thankfully the supporters direct philosophy is gaining ground, clubs in Ireland are about community and should go that route and thankfully it has started in the last few years with the result below for 2011 showing

Rovers won the league
Sligo won the cup
Cork won the 1st division

all supporter run clubs.. this is the future for the LOI forget about people who have no interest or understanding of our league

Point taken, and I'm guessing that the 3 clubs named above would have been among the best supported in the leagues this past season, so how come they can attract the crowds and others can't? Is it just total loyalty or do these clubs put more effort into attracting the punter?

**Dodge** · 09/11/2011, 3:37 PM

To counter that the club with msot debt in this country is also the fan owned and run club Bohs

The models aren't the problems, the people involved are

**Lim till i die** · 09/11/2011, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

To counter that the club with msot debt in this country is also the fan owned and run club Bohs

The models aren't the problems, the people involved are

This x 1000000

Fan owned clubs will always, always, eventually fall into financial difficulty without benevolent business backers aswell. Do the math.

**El-Pietro** · 09/11/2011, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Lim till i die

This x 1000000

Fan owned clubs will always, always, eventually fall into financial difficulty without benevolent business backers aswell. Do the math.

no they wont

they will only fall into financial difficulty if they spend more than they have.

Do the math.

**sadloserkid** · 09/11/2011, 4:05 PM

Not wholly related to a lot of the recent debate in this thread but would it be correct to say that Pats and (for now) Bohs are the only clubs in the league without a recent enough relegation in their history? Leaving aside those clubs with no recent stint in the top tier like Wexford, the new newer Galway clubs and ourselves, the first division's permanent resident? A strange enough stat I would say.

Quite a lot of the 'big' clubs relegations were either directly down to financial mismanagement (a la Derry or Shels) or clubs running themselves into the ground and basically having to pull the plug before they exploded too (Galway this season?). There's been precious few examples of well-run clubs competing at the top end of things for any spell of time in the 11 or 12 seasons that I've followed the league. I would also be of the school of thought that it's the people making the decisions rather than the systems by which the clubs are governed that has contributed to this state of affairs... obviously the mass public indifference hasn't helped either!

**Dodge** · 09/11/2011, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

To counter that the club with most debt in this country is also the fan owned and run club Bohs

Just on this, Bohs have releaed a pretty long statement that says 4 things
1) We've made cutbacks
2) We owe Zurich €4mill
3) We need to sell Dalymount to pay them back
4) We can't sell dalymount yet

**Nesta99** · 09/11/2011, 4:15 PM

Valid point Dodge! Im not sure Bohs is the best example as anybody expecting a 65mil payday could lose the run of themselves. If they hadnt messed up the land deal/deals well who knows. LTID you cannot be so absolute in your analysis. It depends of course on what level a club is attempting to compete at. Financial difficulty is not a certainty at fan owned clubs, there are many examples in the UK for eg. In Ireland living within your means is an alien concept beyond football but the philosophy is changing. Benefactor monies is very welcome of course assuming that 'benefactor' is not in a position to .. cough.. pay themselves back