16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[Eminence Grise]

I agree with truncating the duration of the league: 30 league matches at 30 weekends, with a few extra weeks for the FAI cup seems feasible, and allows for a mid-season break. And I would do away with play-offs entirely: final positions should be decided when the league is over, not by play-offs, firstly within and ultimately between divisions, which are more like cup ties tagged on at the end and as like as not to be settled like a cup-tie - by a stroke of bad luck. In a 16 team division, I’d prefer to see two down, two up. I’d suggest three, but until there’s a clearer view of what teams would be in the first division, it might be a step too far for the third-placed team and harm them in the long run.

As to whether I prefer summer or winter soccer, like the seasons I blow hot and cold! Both have their attractions; both have their detractions. But blaming balmy summer nights in Bray, or sleet and snow in Sligo for poor attendances just gives me the impression (again) that some clubs and the league need to stop looking for excuses for their promotional deficiencies, get off their collectives asses and fight for custom. Ten teams, sixteen teams; teams from “the provinces” or only from the Pale; pyramids or ever decreasing circles – it’s all tinkering at the edges if the basic marketing and public relations efforts are missing.

[peadar1987]

A playoff between the Premier and first division makes sense, because those teams haven't already had the chance to prove themselves against each other over a 30+ game season, but I agree that internal playoffs are a bit unfair. Galway have earned the right to finish ahead of Bray over 34 games so far, so it doesn't seem right to decide the entire season on one game at Terryland. That said, if Bray can win that, I'll be a very happy, very drunk boy that evening!

[Sean South]

I’m a old romantic and traditionalist so my heart will always favour winter football it’s what I was brought up on, cold nights, avalanches in the shed when we scored, soup to warm me up as a nipper then cider as a teen, bouncing around, great atmospheres, but when you look back at thing the always seem better. So when I take off my rose tinted glasses I only have to think back to that horrible horrible nightmare back in Tallaght stadium last November, wind and rain coming from all sides we were in the East stand still got soaked.

Honestly I can’t see there been much differences in drop offs in attendances we have now in June/July/August then what will happen on wet miserable nights in winter. Because what will happen is fickle fans will look out the window on a wet night and say “Ah it’s only UCD I’m not going out in that, I’ll stay in and watch X Factor with the bird” So just changing it for the sake of changing it is pointless because there is no magic solution to the problems of the LOI. Every second year something is changed to little effect.

Another thing people argue in favour of summer football is it helps clubs in Europe, personally I don’t think Europe should be but on a pedestal. This dream of European glory is one of the biggest downfalls of our league. Just look at Drogs, Bohs, Shels, Cork, Derry to see the result of chasing this dream, then you had smaller clubs playing catch up and running into problems too. I think building a sustainable future with solid foundations in each clubs local community is the only way forward. If you win in Europe it’s a bonus but should never be the priority.

No matter what new gimmick is tried it won’t change much overall the only thing that can improve the league is clubs getting out into their own communities and attracting more fans through the gates. Money is tight now but improving facilities for supporters is very important to attracting new supporters or making the more fickle fans come back more often.

I am in favour of a 16 team league the buzz of only playing the big clubs at home knowing it’s only guaranteed once in the league will make those nights special, trips to Cork, Derry, Waterford will make it feel more like a league of Ireland then the current Dublin district league. The amount of times we’ve played Pats, Bohs and Shams this year makes it a bit diluted it doesn’t have the same buzz to it.

Edit: Having 16 team league should bring a end to mid week games something I hate with a passion

[Sam_Heggy]

Mid-season breaks are a balls too.

That is all.

[sullanefc]

If the FAI are running the league now, and not the clubs, doesn't that mean that they will have the final say on the structure of the league? It really doesn't matter what votes the clubs take. The FAI will make the decision at the end of the day surely???

[legendz]

I'd imagine the FAI will have the final say but they have to take on board what the clubs want. Their was an ideal view by the Genesis report for example that a 10 team Premier was the way to go but in practice it hasn't been that attractive and a having clubs only meeting twice would appear better. They'll have to be careful though, the league can't always keep chopping and changing.
The first division most likely will be a 10 club division with a 36 game season. With 6 games more than the Premier, the room is there for 6 group games in a league cup. It'd be Premier clubs only at first but in time if the first division expanded to 16, the league cup could expand from 16 to 32 giving first division sides more bigger games as well.

As I mentioned last week, based on current status and 2 or 4 clubs being brought up from the A Championship to join Division One, the league could look like:

Premier Division (16)
Bohemians ... Champions League
Shamrock Rovers .. Europa League play-off
Sligo Rovers .. Europa League play-off
St Patricks Athletic .. Europa League play-off
Sporting Fingal FC .. Europa League play-off
Dundalk
UCD
Galway United
Bray Wanderers
Drogheda United
Derry City
Monaghan United
Waterford United
Shelbourne .. Relegation/Promotion play-off
Limerick 37 FC .. Relegation
Cork City FORAS .. Relegation

Division One (8 or 10)
Wexford Youths .. Promotion
Finn Harps .. Promotion
Longford Town .. Relegation/Promotion play-off
Athlone Town
Mervue United
Salthill Devon
Cobh Ramblers
FC Carlow
Tralee Dynamos
Castlebar Celtic .. Relegation/Promotion play-off

I know it's debatable bringing in EL play-offs and separately giving a European place to the League Cup but I think with a final in the Aviva, it would be a good move and boost the competition. With cup winners most likely to come from the top 5, 6th and 7th would most likely be included in the EL play-offs in the model above.

[John83]

The real question for me is how much the FAI will have to fudge to get 16 clubs Premier licences.

I've always preferred a 16 team Premier, and summer soccer, so I'm divided on the details, but I really detest the semi-annual shake-up.

Bald Student (or Student Mullet, I forget) won Post of the Month years ago with a post along the lines of "The number of teams in the Premier division is changing at the end of the season. That should fix any remaining problems we have."

[micls]

The real question for me is how much the FAI will have to fudge to get 16 clubs Premier licences.

Well this year tehre were 13 clubs with premier licences, 12 premier plus Monaghan. I think Shels had one last year so they should be able to get back to that standard you'd imagine, Derry probably won't have a problem and we're applying for one too so must have some confidence in the ability to get one.

That's 16. Of course there's the possibility some that had them this year won't retain them and they will probably try to get Limerick up to the standard as they're likely to be in the position to go into a 16team.

There could be a slight amount of fudge but I don't think it would be anything that would stop them

[Macy]

As for summer activities. Well if you are prepared to give up a LOI game and go and watch rubbish gah or stupid concerts then what the hell do we care. Im sure a cold winters evening would also be a no-no for the same type of person. Excuses excuses excuses, changing to winter football wont see a huge jump in crowds.

Actually it's the "excuse" of people that would've been semi-regular when it was winter. In my own case, we've far more family activities (not rubbish GAA or stupid concerts ) over the summer months that make it harder to get to games (admittedly with a 3.5-4 hour round trip), but I'm hardly unique in family taking priority. In a couple of years the kids will be at an age that threads, well threads up until this one it seems, used to be crying out for clubs to get active in attracting.

I doubt winter football will lead to a huge jump in crowds, but if it got us back to where we were before the switch it would be a start.

[Macy]

Well this year tehre were 13 clubs with premier licences, 12 premier plus Monaghan. I think Shels had one last year so they should be able to get back to that standard you'd imagine, Derry probably won't have a problem and we're applying for one too so must have some confidence in the ability to get one.

There's 10 premier teams, so 3 first division clubs have a premier licence (including Longford iirc).

[micls]

There's 10 premier teams, so 3 first division clubs have a premier licence (including Longford iirc).

Going a bit loopy Forgot it was only 10 in the premier!

[Macy]

Going a bit loopy Forgot it was only 10 in the premier!

The rest of the post was right thought - there's several things that aren't needed for the first division licence that are easily sorted for the premier division licence (such as CPO's). The stuff that is harder, such as infrastructure, is already fudge central for a number of existing premier teams.

[Buller]

i'd just like to point out that we have lost to latvians during the summer seasons

No... no, bold Longford fan. You're not allowed talk about anything to do with Europe ever again, okay? Or at least another 10 years.

Seriously a move from summer football would be a very bad regression for a whole host of reasons. I think Jicked nailed them on the first page of this thread. There's just too many negatives for the one positive of "a better atmosphere in the dark".

[Dodge]

Seriously a move from summer football would be a very bad regression for a whole host of reasons. I think Jicked nailed them on the first page of this thread

And others like Macy and Shedendinvis have offered pretty compelling arguments why summer has proven not to work.

[Macy]

Seriously a move from summer football would be a very bad regression for a whole host of reasons. I think Jicked nailed them on the first page of this thread. There's just too many negatives for the one positive of "a better atmosphere in the dark".

Jicked, and you, haven't outlined any reasons. It was "inventive" and lead to some unspecified "good results" seems to be the sum total of reasons Jicked gave. I'm not sure how "the weather is better" is a justified argument (despite the evidence contradicting the impact of that), and "the atmosphere being better in the dark" isn't?

[Magicme]

You dont need a CPO to get a Premier Licence, it was one of the benefits of having a Premier Licence that the FAI will part fund your CPO.

[GalwayRed]

And others like Macy and Shedendinvis have offered pretty compelling arguments why summer has proven not to work.

Yes but there haven't been many compelling arguments as to why winter football will work. All I've seen so far is how it would be great to watch matches under the lights. The people who don't want to go to matches and waste a nice summer evening are the same people who would rather sit at home and watch the tv on a cold winter evening.
The league needs a lot of work in other areas and changing the season the league is played in isn't going to improve things.

[pineapple stu]

There's been no compelling arguments as to why either would work. That's the whole problem. People on both sides are saying their side is better, but as it stands, the move is headless and won't do much either way.

[Jicked]

I think the amount of coverage the league receives is a pretty compelling argument to be honest. It's perfectly clear that LoI gets more attention in the Irish press in the summer months when entire pull-out souvenir editions are being rolled out if Rooney picks his nose.

The League gets more press coverage, there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show (and no chance of UEFA CL stopping LoI games being shown on TV), this raises the profile of the league and makes it more desirable for advertisers to associate with the League.

Now I understand that the above doesn't necessarily have much of an impact on say Mervue, Salthill or even some smaller Premier Division teams who won't feature much on TV or in the press, but it does bring money in to the league and keep the profile up. That should be commended and encouraged, instead of letting small-mindedness mean Salthill have a say in when the league is played because Mrs Donnelly does the bingo on a Friday in the summer and wouldn't be able to run the fizzy drink stall.

[Dodge]

I think the amount of coverage the league receives is a pretty compelling argument to be honest. It's perfectly clear that LoI gets more attention in the Irish press in the summer months

Is it clear? Not to me.

The League gets more press coverage, there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show (and no chance of UEFA CL stopping LoI games being shown on TV), this raises the profile of the league and makes it more desirable for advertisers to associate with the League.

the LOI was actually off air throughout the summer months. The busy periods for Live TV has been the start and end of the seasons (the two that would make it part of the winter season)

That should be commended and encouraged, instead of letting small-mindedness mean Salthill have a say in when the league is played because Mrs Donnelly does the bingo on a Friday in the summer and wouldn't be able to run the fizzy drink stall.

Patronise much? Clubs like Sligo have come out in favour of the winter season. Clubs like Salthill have sid nothing. And DOn't forget that 4 years ago you were at the level that Slathill is now