16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

**BonnieShels** · 25/12/2010, 8:39 PM

Nigel why is that a good enough reason for going back to winter football?We have what we have so unless there is a serious compelling reason to go back to a winter season then we shouldn't even contemplate it. Just because we haven't had success in Europe doesn't mean we should revert to a winter season.
There are other things in the LOI that need to be sorted rather than when the season occurs.

**peadar1987** · 25/12/2010, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

This would technically make sense if we had the same climate as Scotland. But since most of Scotland sees snow at half a sniff of a temperature below 5 celsius this makes a big difference.

Making comparisons to other leagues just makes no sense. Its a completely different fanbase, climate and financial situation amongst other circumstances.

It's hardly wildly different. At least, not enough to make any comparison completely invalid. Looking at how people in other countries have made their leagues work, and weighing up ideas on how well they would serve us, given the specific circumstances is a good idea. Having lived in Scotland for 12 months, I can tell you that very little about the place is "completely different" to their neighbours just a few hundred kilometres away.

We survived healthily for many many years in a winter season.

Since the inception of the summer season the league has fast gone downhill. European success is complete load of ******** because simply there has been no success. Beating the odd eastern european pub team is no success. Getting hammered by any half decent team (ALA TNS) most definitely is no success.
The closest thing we have seen to success is Shels close run of Deportivo, and that was a good while back now, 2004 if i'm correct?

How much European success was there before the switch to summer football? You can't use this as a reason! And the primary problem; the league's financial woes, has nothing to do with the mean matchday temperature, and everything to do with the completely unlinked unsustainable spending policies of the league clubs.

**BonnieShels** · 26/12/2010, 12:03 AM

You are having a very angry Christmas there Peadar.

**peadar1987** · 26/12/2010, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by BonnieShels

You are having a very angry Christmas there Peadar.

Yeah, all those steroids Santa brought me are kicking in!

**frenchman** · 26/12/2010, 7:50 AM

we have progressed stop putting this into question

definition from the oxford dictionary of progress

progress(pro|gress)

noun

Pronunciation:/ˈprəʊgrɛs/
[mass noun]

1 forward or onward movement towards a destination:the darkness did not stop my progressthey failed to make any progress up the estuary
[count noun] archaic a state journey or official tour, especially by royalty.
2 development towards an improved or more advanced condition:we are making progress towards equal rights

uefa country coefficient for the last 16 years going back though summer soccer change (the 8 years since and the 8 years preceding 1/1.375/2.5/1/2.83/1.83/1.3/0.33 CHANGEOVER 0.166/0.66/1.66/0.33/0.5/0.166/0.33/0.33...average of last eight years 1.52 average of eigth years leading up to change-over 0.60 HERE THE FIRST NUMBER IS BIGGER THAN THE SECOND SO THE LEAGUE HAS GOT BETTER SINCE THE CHANGE (beacuse of the change? maybe not but it is better)
another way of showing this is the country ranking.Here are the last 16 years leading up to today's 29th position 35th,37th,43rd,44th,41st,41st,38th,37th,39th,40th, 38th,40th,35th,35th,30th,29th today
we have not reached the promised land of group stages, sky matches or long haired tanned footballers in magazines but ON FOOTBALLING TERMS we are better than before. to deny the fact that we have made progress is totally insane. yes we all bragged about the gretna hammering and shels when they were doing well and of course we all cringed when dundalk crept past a pub team but all teams and leagues in the world have bad days at the office.
for me there were 3 major resaons for the change in ''fortunes''. the CELTIC TIGER/ PROFESSIONAL TEAMS/ SUMMER SOCCER
NUMBER ONE : is gone and certanly caused a lot of mismanagement among chairmen, ''we are irish this boom will never stop, we are a different kind of people who are totally immune to basis economic logic'' and all that sh1te.........
NUMBER TWO : is a knock-on effect from the first and third reason, but I do feel that it is possible (even in the present climate) BEING PROFESSIONAL MEANS THAT IT IS YOUR PRIMARY / SOLE SOURCE OF INCOME. nothing stipulates that you have to earn millions and be on the cover of magazines and wear fake tan!!!! what is wrong with earning 250 quid a week, not paying a rent and playing football in front of 2000 a week........christ I'd do it!!!!
NUMBER THREE : this was a very good decision in my opinion. results have improved and even if we go back to part-time teams the fact that we are fitter going into games in July/August means we can win more than before!!!!!

**BonnieShels** · 26/12/2010, 9:36 AM

Originally Posted by peadar1987

Yeah, all those steroids Santa brought me are kicking in!

Try not to Benoit.

**holidaysong** · 26/12/2010, 9:55 AM

I see there are no dates for promotion / relegation playoffs in the fixture list. Also, with the cup final one week after the season ends (rather than two), they wouldn't have much room to squeeze them in there. Therefore you can only assume they'll be going with three up and one down next year to get us to a 12 team Premier.

**BonnieShels** · 26/12/2010, 10:22 AM

You are, pray not, applying logic to the evidence as presented by the FAI?
Looks like we are finishing 4th.

**passerrby** · 26/12/2010, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by holidaysong

I see there are no dates for promotion / relegation playoffs in the fixture list. Also, with the cup final one week after the season ends (rather than two), they wouldn't have much room to squeeze them in there. Therefore you can only assume they'll be going with three up and one down next year to get us to a 12 team Premier.

think there will be no relegation or playoff so only two up

**bennocelt** · 27/12/2010, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

This would technically make sense if we had the same climate as Scotland. But since most of Scotland sees snow at half a sniff of a temperature below 5 celsius this makes a big difference.
Making comparisons to other leagues just makes no sense. Its a completely different fanbase, climate and financial situation amongst other circumstances.
We survived healthily for many many years in a winter season.
Since the inception of the summer season the league has fast gone downhill. European success is complete load of ******** because simply there has been no success. Beating the odd eastern european pub team is no success. Getting hammered by any half decent team (ALA TNS) most definitely is no success.
The closest thing we have seen to success is Shels close run of Deportivo, and that was a good while back now, 2004 if i'm correct?

I'd go back to winter football in a heartbeat.

You talk about evidence and facts then miss the most obvious one - Frenchman got to it before me - Irish clubs have progressed in Europe - I remember when we were in the 40's with Malta and Norn Iron for company, and clubs were doing well to get a win the preliminary round. Small progress granted but al least Irish teams expect to get by the first round they encounter and maybe even a little further. That's progress.

**passerrby** · 27/12/2010, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

This would technically make sense if we had the same climate as Scotland. But since most of Scotland sees snow at half a sniff of a temperature below 5 celsius this makes a big difference.
Making comparisons to other leagues just makes no sense. Its a completely different fanbase, climate and financial situation amongst other circumstances.
We survived healthily for many many years in a winter season.
Since the inception of the summer season the league has fast gone downhill. European success is complete load of ******** because simply there has been no success. Beating the odd eastern european pub team is no success. Getting hammered by any half decent team (ALA TNS) most definitely is no success.
The closest thing we have seen to success is Shels close run of Deportivo, and that was a good while back now, 2004 if i'm correct?

I'd go back to winter football in a heartbeat.

so because we had no great success in europe we should return to winter football ?
I dont believe or care about the european v summer fooball , I just think summer is better and still have found not one reason for a return.
the only real argument for or against is attendance and im not convinced it impacts greatly either way.

**legendz** · 03/01/2011, 7:10 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...em/9334707.stm

SPL supporters seem to back a larger league of about 16 or 18, a winter break and play-offs. Be interesting to see if they get listened to. It's a pity LoI supporters were not given a platform to voice their opinions on the direction the league should take.

**Spudulika** · 03/01/2011, 8:10 PM

A point frenchman made very clearly is something I've been asking people around the league. What is the definition of a professional? If the definition is a person who is full time training and preparing for games, then it would be more than possible to have 4-5 full time clubs in the league with most clubs (in the Premier at least) have 5-6 full timers. So then it knocks into - what is a living wage? If the gross is 2,500 a month for 12 months, you're looking at an outlay of 30,000euros pa. Kick in bonuses etc and it's a fairly decent wage for players who are genuinely into playing football full time. The crux comes when players are unable to survive on this amount and have to pick up extra work on the side, which damages the whole idea and process of going professional. So how does it work? A club I worked with had players (this was rugby) on part-time contracts but with training and recovery schedules that fitted in with work and also with work that fitted the schedules, not completely, but enough. It was possible to have a core of 4 pros full time, 8 part-time and 18 amateurs, which brought a small club on in leaps and bounds. In football I've seen it done likewise and the whole thing boils down to good management and direction. Recovery is vital in every way. However clubs will begin outbidding each others for players, and as now, will offer money on contract and a wedge under the table (as one prominent club is wont to do). This kills the system and can never be fully regulated, not until a player gets the hump or a major club official hands over the books. Which will be never.

**peadar1987** · 03/01/2011, 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

A point frenchman made very clearly is something I've been asking people around the league. What is the definition of a professional? If the definition is a person who is full time training and preparing for games, then it would be more than possible to have 4-5 full time clubs in the league with most clubs (in the Premier at least) have 5-6 full timers. So then it knocks into - what is a living wage? If the gross is 2,500 a month for 12 months, you're looking at an outlay of 30,000euros pa. Kick in bonuses etc and it's a fairly decent wage for players who are genuinely into playing football full time. The crux comes when players are unable to survive on this amount and have to pick up extra work on the side, which damages the whole idea and process of going professional. So how does it work? A club I worked with had players (this was rugby) on part-time contracts but with training and recovery schedules that fitted in with work and also with work that fitted the schedules, not completely, but enough. It was possible to have a core of 4 pros full time, 8 part-time and 18 amateurs, which brought a small club on in leaps and bounds. In football I've seen it done likewise and the whole thing boils down to good management and direction. Recovery is vital in every way. However clubs will begin outbidding each others for players, and as now, will offer money on contract and a wedge under the table (as one prominent club is wont to do). This kills the system and can never be fully regulated, not until a player gets the hump or a major club official hands over the books. Which will be never.

So much sense in just one post!

And so much could be achieved if the FAI had the balls to bring in a proper, rigid system and enforce it properly.

**legendz** · 04/01/2011, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by passerrby

so because we had no great success in europe we should return to winter football ?
I dont believe or care about the european v summer fooball , I just think summer is better and still have found not one reason for a return.
the only real argument for or against is attendance and im not convinced it impacts greatly either way.

I'd have to agree. Changing the season from summer to winter doesn't look like have much difference either way in terms of attendances. Moving to a larger Premier would've been a bit more of a radical step.

**Dodge** · 04/01/2011, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

I'd have to agree. Changing the season from summer to winter doesn't look like have much difference either way in terms of attendances. Moving to a larger Premier would've been a bit more of a radical step.

And wouldn't affect crowds either. For all the bleating that some fans do about playing Rovers/Bohs etc all the time they still get better crowds to thosse games than they do to Bray/UCD etc.

This goes rounds in circles. Plenty of arguuments for both sides but it boils down to some prefering to watch football in summer (like passerby above) and some who prefer watching it in winter (I'd count myself among these).

The season, and make up of the league, doesn't really matter to most.

**legendz** · 04/01/2011, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

And wouldn't affect crowds either. For all the bleating that some fans do about playing Rovers/Bohs etc all the time they still get better crowds to thosse games than they do to Bray/UCD etc.

This goes rounds in circles. Plenty of arguuments for both sides but it boils down to some prefering to watch football in summer (like passerby above) and some who prefer watching it in winter (I'd count myself among these).

The season, and make up of the league, doesn't really matter to most.

You might have a point in terms of attendance but what about the promotion of the league? The league itself has a low enough profile at the moment. Having the Premier in more areas of the country will be a help. Expanding the league to at least 16 will help with this. It's hard to gauge but when word got out on radio and in the papers of a possible expansion of 16, it seemed to have been well received. This was before the FAI released their statement that no decision had been made and stakeholders had to be spoken to etc.

**legendz** · 04/01/2011, 6:55 PM

It seems the SPL will be going the opposite direction of the LoI. They'll be going from the 12 team Premier with a split to a 10 team Premier. The main reason is money. 90% of their fans don't want it. At least they seemed to have more of a public debate and clubs voiced their opinions. I haven't heard any manager or chairman in the LoI come out in public about the direction they will like the league to take.

**Dodge** · 04/01/2011, 8:43 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

You might have a point in terms of attendance but what about the promotion of the league?

Whats the point in promoting it if it isn't to get peopel to attend the games?

**Spudulika** · 05/01/2011, 1:19 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

It seems the SPL will be going the opposite direction of the LoI. They'll be going from the 12 team Premier with a split to a 10 team Premier. The main reason is money. 90% of their fans don't want it. At least they seemed to have more of a public debate and clubs voiced their opinions. I haven't heard any manager or chairman in the LoI come out in public about the direction they will like the league to take.

Mainly because they will go in whatever direction they're told. When the former CEO of Pats is held up as the sensible voice of progress, begin to be afraid, be very afraid.

Time of year doesn't make a major difference, the professionality and attitude of the clubs and the overseers of the game does. Clubs will sheepishly continue on regardless as they're unable to form a concensus for change, or progress.