Slovakia V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 12th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[Closed Account 2]

Looks like he's being erotically asphyxiated. Delaney, you dirty dog...

"Carlsberg don't do trains, but if they did..."

[ifk101]

Fairly odd and contrived piece from O'Donoghue.

Not really. He watched Lawrence train on Monday with no apparent injury. He also understood Trapattoni as saying he needed to talk to Lawrence before naming the team for Slovakia. If Lawrence's injuries were such to keep him out of the match day squad for Slovakia, he probably wouldn't have travelled to Slovakia and most likely wouldn't have trained on the Monday.

Tony O'D is just giving his perception of the events. Whether he is right or wrong, I think there is a rational line of thought behind his suggestion that Lawrence was dropped.

[tetsujin1979]

Not really. He watched Lawrence train on Monday with no apparent injury. He also understood Trapattoni as saying he needed to talk to Lawrence before naming the team for Slovakia. If Lawrence's injuries were such to keep him out of the match day squad for Slovakia, he probably wouldn't have travelled to Slovakia and most likely wouldn't have trained on the Monday.

Tony O'D is just giving his perception of the events. Whether he is right or wrong, I think there is a rational line of thought behind his suggestion that Lawrence was dropped.

you have to admit saying "Lawrence was not injured" and then listing two injuries he does have is a bit odd

[Stuttgart88]

To be perfectly honest, that's a load of rubbish from Tony O'Donoghue.

A great example of the Irish media looking to stir up sh*te at every opportunity. Expected better from O'Donoghue.

I agree. Trap is allowed to make value judgments. He chose Gibson for the bench who takes good set pieces. He had Keogh as a forward option allowing Long to move wide right. Foley can play wide right (not sure if he was on the bench though). Picking your bench for the contingency that our lead penalty taker might lose his nerve is daft.

There are probably good reasons to have LL on the bench if he's fit. However, everyone's complaining about Trap not making changes, now when he makes them people complain.

[geysir]

Some talk in the papers this morning (coming from Trap?) about the possibilities of playing someone like McCarthy in front of CM and behind a striker.
That would be a change but it's a change which has the potential for the least effect. Just how is the ball going to travel up that far? Not via Andrews or Whelan.

[paul_oshea]

I agree. Trap is allowed to make value judgments. He chose Gibson for the bench who takes good set pieces. He had Keogh as a forward option allowing Long to move wide right. Foley can play wide right (not sure if he was on the bench though). Picking your bench for the contingency that our lead penalty taker might lose his nerve is daft.

There are probably good reasons to have LL on the bench if he's fit. However, everyone's complaining about Trap not making changes, now when he makes them people complain.

Changes, not necessarily good changes.

[tetsujin1979]

Changes, not necessarily good changes.

If he made no changes at all, our bench would still include Liam Miller, Alex Bruce, etc
It seems to me that the journalists are complaining that he's not making the changes that they want.

[paul_oshea]

Well thats probably a fair point tets. The thing is i think its not just the journalists though, there are a lot more fans on the same wavelength.

[tetsujin1979]

Well thats probably a fair point tets. The thing is i think its not just the journalists though, there are a lot more fans on the same wavelength.

like the saying goes, journalists are just fans with keyboards.

[geysir]

Changes, not necessarily good changes.

On the point about change, you just don't change for change's sake. You should first identify a good reason to change and see what the options are to change. There is a method.
Re players, apart from McCarthy (who was already a solid squad candidate) most of the others are just coming through or just making a case for themselves.
The second question, is there enough reason and options to change the formation?
I have no real issues with what Trap had done up to now. I do have some silly belief system that if Trap so identifies that we need to change, he will find the players to make the change work as well as having the personality/character/knowledge to make it work.

[Fixer82]

I agree. Trap is allowed to make value judgments. He chose Gibson for the bench who takes good set pieces. He had Keogh as a forward option allowing Long to move wide right. Foley can play wide right (not sure if he was on the bench though). Picking your bench for the contingency that our lead penalty taker might lose his nerve is daft.

There are probably good reasons to have LL on the bench if he's fit. However, everyone's complaining about Trap not making changes, now when he makes them people complain.

yep he was about to come on for McGeady when the ref prematurely blew the final whistle

[ifk101]

you have to admit saying "Lawrence was not injured" and then listing two injuries he does have is a bit odd

Injured in the sense that he couldn't play. He questions if the "injuries" fed to him by the FAI & Co. were sufficient to stop Lawrence from playing. He thinks not hence the assertion "Lawrence was not injured".

[geysir]

you have to admit saying "Lawrence was not injured" and then listing two injuries he does have is a bit odd

I don't see anything odd.
Lawrence was a doubt after the Russian game. Trap stated that he expected him to recover and he was brought to Slovakia, however he failed a fitness test. He was deemed not fit enough to play.

[Kingdom]

What irks me is this notion that a player is undroppable, or that (as is seen perhaps in the case above) if a player is dropped it results in a civil war amongst the squad or between the player and manager. If LL was dropped, so what? Did Fahey do a good job? He sure did. In my opinion Trap made the right call.

I think it's sensationalist for the sake of it, and totally unnecessary. I also read the Times interview with Lawro, and his enthusiasm to be involved, and his gratitude, shine through.
Also from reading how (self admittedly) himself and Pulis calmly and politely dealt with his situation at Stoke where he surprisingly went from mainstay to fringe player very suddenly, it doesn't suggest that he is the type of personality or character to throw a hissy just because he's dropped after an evaluation by the manager.

Actually it's sh*t stirring by Tony O'D, nothing more.

[jbyrne]

- Dean Kiely walked out as he wasn't getting games
- Stephen Reid has retired (maybe not long-term) as he was frozen out to some degree.
- Andy Reid has been alienated to the point of no return.
- Stephen Ireland, while I have little or no respect for, did remark Trappatoni's approach was rough around the edges.

So, can we really see a revolution in the personnel of this team or even squad? Unlikely. I think if we hypothetically qualified today, we'd all pick 19/20 of the squad that would go to Ukraine/Poland. Trappatoni engineers interia in squads and a player's mentality. It's poor for us, because we really need to develop players.

how many of these players are a loss to us given their current form? none

trap has called up more players than any other recent Irish manager did at the same stage of their reigns. do people forget where we have come from over the last 2 odd years since stan?

[Kingdom]

SOCCER EURO 2012 QUALIFYING GROUP B: IN THE face of a fair bit of criticism of late that neither his team selections nor his tactics are enterprising enough, Republic of Ireland manager Giovanni Trapattoni seemed intent yesterday on portraying himself as the old dog who wrote the big book of tricks.

And with five friendly games coming up, the 71-year-old even hinted there will be a little more crowd-pleasing sleight of hand between now and next summer.

The manager claimed he is always ready to add new players to his squad and constantly willing to trade up whenever possible. He pointed to the fact that for all the talk of conservatism, the likes of Seán St Ledger, Glenn Whelan and Liam Lawrence have all made their senior international debuts during his watch. More recently, and controversially, Paul Green has successfully capitalised on the absence through injury of Keith Andrews to stake a claim to one of the central midfield berths ahead of Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson and James McCarthy.

The manager insists, though, that team must evolve gradually rather than be subjected to radical overhauls at this level and he insists some of those waiting in the wings will get their chance to impress during the months ahead.

Trapattoni’s apparent devotion to the 4-4-2 system, meanwhile, has been a major talking point over the last couple of years but back in Dublin for a few hours prior to returning to Milan, the Italian insisted he is not remotely hung up on the approach.

As he has done before, he claimed the system with its two essentially defensive central midfielders and attacking wide men helps to get the best out of the players available but, he claimed, he would happily ditch the formation if players coming though provided him with viable alternatives, a possibility he might well explore against Norway, Northern Ireland and Wales.

“We’re looking all the time for opportunities to bring new players into the team,” he claimed, “but it isn’t wise to change everything at the same time. You cannot change four or five players at once in international football because you don’t have the time to tell so many players what is wanted in the way that you could at a club.

“But now it’s important to look at other options. Maybe we change the system too. In 30 years I’ve played lots of different systems. And when I came here, first I thought (Stephen) Ireland could play behind the striker. Maybe now, (Aiden) McGeady could play that role . . . I know all about systems but you need to have time and you need to find the players.”

With only the qualifiers against Macedonia in March and June breaking up a run of five friendlies between now and the start of the summer, Trapattoni would appear to have some time and he suggested McCarthy, Wilson and Stoke City striker Jonathan Walters are amongst those who are likely to get chances to impress.

Trapattoni sought to sidestep questions about which of his players had failed to perform in games against Russia and Slovakia that yielded just one point. Asked outright if Robbie Keane was “finished at the top level” he inevitably replied his captain remains an important member of the team but he did acknowledge the Spurs striker is some way off his best and, like others, needs to be playing consistently at club level.

“Sure, he can’t run like (Shane) Long at 23 or 24 but the very best teams are a mixture of experience and energy,” he said. “Yesterday, it was clear he was not fit enough for 90 minutes because he hasn’t been playing for his club. Maybe he didn’t pass or shoot as quickly as he would another time but we still need his experience.

“He has played a lot,” said the manager in relation to the suggestion Keane, having played senior football since he was 17 years old is beginning to look like he has a lot of miles on the clock, “but if a car has gone for 200,000 kilometres, it doesn’t mean it’s dead.

“When fitness isn’t right, it’s possible a player misses one second, two or three metres and not just last night but also against the Russians, we had two or three chances where those two or three metres made all the difference.”

The points dropped over the last few days might well make all the difference this time next year when this group’s final line-up is decided and Trapattoni concedes Russia are looking good . . . “But their players play a lot of games in important leagues and European competitions and all it takes is one or two injuries at the wrong times and they can have problems. Last night they won but Macedonia missed a penalty. If they had scored it, it might have been difficult for Russia.”

In the meantime, it will be difficult for Ireland. Victory in Moscow seems an unlikely prospect and outperforming the group leaders against the group’s lesser sides will take a bit of doing with most hopes resting on Armenia upsetting the top seeds in Yerevan as they they upset Slovakia last week.

The manager has talked a great deal about the players he was missing this week but the Slovaks are likely to be a lot stronger when they come to Dublin next September. By then, the Irish might well be scrapping it out for second place and it is far from certain even that will turn out well. Unless, of course, Trapattoni can pull some sort of rabbit from a hat.

Trap's options: four-four-two


TEN PLAYERS who might play a part in Giovanni Trapattoni’s team- building over the coming months.

FIRST RUN OUTS . . .

Having declared his desire to play for Ireland, a first call-up for Aston Villa defender Ciarán Clark may not be too far away but the former England youth team captain is only 21 and there are some who might feel they are ahead of him in the queue.

Marc Wilson: The calibre of his performances for Portsmouth as they went down last year marked him out as having Premier League quality and Stoke City have handed him a route back to the top flight. Tall, quick and a strong tackler, the northerner is a technically decent player who looks comfortable in central midfield or defence

Séamus Coleman: Still playing for the under-21s just a matter of weeks ago, there is a growing inevitability about the young Donegalman’s graduation to the senior ranks. Coleman looks a terrific prospect either as an attacking right back or, David Moyes appears to reckon, a right-sided midfielder.

Jonathan Walters: Not the most outlandishly talented player but Walters is a good, solid striker with strength and a bit of pace who is back playing in the top flight after quite few years in the lower leagues.

Jamie O’Hara: Currently laid up with a back injury, the lively 24-year-old midfielder has been away from the limelight for a while but seems to be shaping up for a January move to West Ham where regular first-team football would make him an attractive catch for Trapattoni.

FOUR KICKING ON

A few of those who will be hoping to build on their initial breakthroughs

James McCarthy: Made his debut against Brazil in March but pulled out of the squad for the games against Algeria and Paraguay and hasn’t been seen since. But he continues to mature as a player at Wigan and the fact he could still switch allegiance to Scotland means Trapattoni needs to keep him involved.

Keith Fahey: The Birmingham City midfielder’s first competitive start on Tuesday night was clearly a success with Fahey pulling his weight defensively and producing some cracking set-pieces but the Dubliner faces a challenge if he is to carve win a regular place given the competition out wide and Trapattoni’s apparent reluctance to start him in the centre.

Caleb Folan: The Hull City striker is apparently a week or so away from returning from his latest injury problem and could be back playing by next weekend. Having done really well for Ireland in Italy after coming on early in the game Trapattoni seems to hanker after him but he has to stay fit.

Darren O’Dea: That big night at the San Siro seems like a very long time ago for Darren O’Dea who has again gone on loan from Celtic, to Ipswich, so as to play more. The 23-year-old defender could be very useful if only he can recover his momentum at club level.

BACK OFF THE BENCH

Forget about Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid who, for different reasons, appear to be lost causes but there are still a couple of former next big things that the Ireland manager could turn to particularly as they are getting their careers back into gear.

Steven Reid: Technically, the 29-year-old is retired but he didn’t really sound like a man who wanted to pack it all in and if he continues to recover his fitness and form it would be criminal to let his talent go to waste. A fit Reid would significantly improve central midfield or defence.

Joey O’Brien: It’s two years since the Dubliner last kicked a ball in anger but he is nearing match fitness after a serious knee injury. Has had issues with Trapattoni but like Reid, his talent and versatility should make him a little too good to ignore if he gets back to his best.

Good article from Malone. No problem with him whatsoever.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't see anything odd.
Lawrence was a doubt after the Russian game. Trap stated that he expected him to recover and he was brought to Slovakia, however he failed a fitness test. He was deemed not fit enough to play.

I meant in terms of the post from O'Donoghue, not in terms of the team selection. He made a statement, and then immediately contradicted it.

[Kingdom]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1024/1224257395171.html
....
Trapattoni had outlined concerns over Reid’s fitness in the wake of the recent Montenegro qualifier, expressing his belief that such knee injuries were notoriously difficult to overcome. But Allardyce declared himself “disgusted” with the comments while branding Trapattoni a “disgrace”....

“It’s disgraceful, completely out of order,” Allardyce fumed. “He’s not talking correctly in terms of Steven’s injury. What he is saying is completely untrue and something he should apologise for.

“He has undermined us as a football club, undermined Steven as a player and he has really been very, very naughty in what he has said. He should make a public apology and hopefully that will be the end of it.”.....

Assistant manager Liam Brady subsequently attempted to set the record straight, explaining that Trapattoni was “talking about knee injuries in a very general way”. Not that Brady’s intervention cut any ice with Allardyce.

“There’s no player more honest than Steven and to be dealt that sort of a blow at this stage, when he’s not feeling the best, trying to come back from a big injury and picking up another little niggle, is very, very disrespectful to say the least. It’s disgusting,” he added.

“Perhaps I haven’t got the same dignity as Steven. Perhaps I just speak it as I see it. Perhaps he’s more sensible than me. But I’m not happy with what Trapattoni said, I’m disgusted with it.”....

Sam, you don't have any dignity, no point pretending otherwise. And funny, I would have thought the manager selling the player despite previous comments about honesty, integrety and work ethic, would be more of a blow than an International manager rueing the amount of injuries a player has had?

I cannot, under any circumstances, understand how the "treatment" of Steven Reid, can be used against Trap? The bloke has been constantly crocked for us. In the first few games of Trap's reign, he was the real deal, but since he's been banjoed. The majesty of the link up play between himself and Whelan and the rest of the team against Georgia, but particularily the rain sodden game against Norway was a joy to behold, and it's those memories that make the pitiful performances of late even harder to take.
There were two occasions when he was not selected that I can make out from an hours searching the net.
The World cup play off squad, where he'd played the week before in a league cup game against a side 2 leagues below them, but hadn't made the team the immediate match prior to the matches (v Chelsea), and secondly before the friendly vs Brazil in the Emirates, where he also was just back from injury and hadn't any proper game time. In the first instance, it just would not have made sense to play Steven, as there was as good a chance that he'd break down again (and POS, there is evidence that you constantly refer to of that happening ), while in the second instance, was there a need for the fella to be playing for us that day? Not necessarily, and given the hassle newcastle caused for the English FA over Owen and getting injured on duty, again the right decision can be arguably be said to have been made.
I do not believe that it should be used as a sideswipe at Trap, Steve retired from international football for good reasons. That said, if he stays fit, and wants to come back, then he deserves to be recalled. He's that good.

Just another point on the clamour for players in the press and on here. There was an outcry that Finnan wasn't recalled prior to the games v France. He admitted he wasn't fit, despite playing for Pmouth, and I don't think he was seen very much after those games. He's been crocked too.

Andy Reid is the legitimate grievence that critics can use against Trap. But then again he has had serious bouts of injury for a good portion of the last campaign and this. On ability he deserves to be in the squad without a question.

[paul_oshea]

I wonder behind hte scenes has trap been monitoring reids progress and gametime. he is playing right back from west brom still isn't he? Would trap be making overtures behind the scenes? I hope so....assuming reid is progressing well that is.

[geysir]

I meant in terms of the post from O'Donoghue, not in terms of the team selection. He made a statement, and then immediately contradicted it.

O'Donoghue said Lawrence was hurt but not injured. I don't think O'Donoghue contradicted himself in that respect. However he stated emphatically that Lawrence was fit to play, but was dropped from the team and the bench by Trap. That reads as total Cork bull.