Slovakia V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 12th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[Charlie Darwin]

As for Reid's eventual replacement, it might be McCarthy, Meyler, Wilson or even Clifford, it could even be A.N.Other playing DDSL right now. But I don't think it's Fahey.

Does he have to be Steven Reid to play in centre midfield? Can't he just be, you know, better than what we've currently got?

[DeNiro]

Guys, for all the optimism about blooding new players, remember it's Trappatoni we're talking about. Consider these scenarios over the course of his reign:
- Dean Kiely walked out as he wasn't getting games
- Stephen Reid has retired (maybe not long-term) as he was frozen out to some degree.
- Andy Reid has been alienated to the point of no return.
- Stephen Ireland, while I have little or no respect for, did remark Trappatoni's approach was rough around the edges.

At the same time, he keeps faith with Kilbane and introduces Paul Green, player who will invariably fall into line, simply because they do not have creative ability.

So, can we really see a revolution in the personnel of this team or even squad? Unlikely. I think if we hypothetically qualified today, we'd all pick 19/20 of the squad that would go to Ukraine/Poland. Trappatoni engineers interia in squads and a player's mentality. It's poor for us, because we really need to develop players.

In terms of the group:
Definitely fighting it out for 2nd. For all the talk about mentality, Trappatoni has still not solved the problem that is now nearing three decades old - we cannot win away. I think he uses the word mentality cleverly as we benchmark it against Staunton's team, which is not really comparable.

I don't know if Russia have it totally in them to win the group. Someone else's slip up will win it for them. No conviction in them. They were lucky last night with Macedonia missing a penalty.

This was, I think, our best chance in a long while of realistically entertaining thoughts of winning the group. It's not going to happen. But maybe best runner-up would be a consolation prize of equal value.

[geysir]

Like I said, I don't know if the defensive side of Fahey's game is strong enough for him to play in central midfield.
One of the first things that Trapattoni said about the games before he took over was that we were conceding too much possession and territory and the centre of the park, e.g. VS Cyprus, and bringing players like Whelan and Andrews into the side helped to shore up midfield and protect the central defensive pairing. Look at the goals conceded in the last campaign, the majority of them came from play down the wings, not through the centre. Russia were the first opposition in Trapattoni's reign to play through the centre of our midfield repeatedly in a game, almost three years after he took over.
I don't know enough about Fahey to say that playing him there would be a mistake, but I have serious doubts that it is the right thing to do. When Gibson came on last night, I said that Whelan would have to work harder than he had up to that point to cover for him, because he would stand that few yards ahead of where Green had been playing, opening space for Slovakia to play into, would starting Fahey in the centre introduce the same weakness?

Basically I don't think we have a solid enough defensive midfielder to cover for an attacking partner. Steven Reid was marked out early on as a box-to-box player by Trapattoni (go back and watch the away friendly against Norway - fantastic performance) who could play a defensive role and provide a link with the attacking four players, and we still haven't replaced him. After his last serious injury, it seems to me that the decision was made that guarding against a loss with two defensive players was a better option given the squad options available to use than playing someone like Andy Reid in midfield and trying to create a chance from the centre of the park.

As for Reid's eventual replacement, it might be McCarthy, Meyler, Wilson or even Clifford, it could even be A.N.Other playing DDSL right now. But I don't think it's Fahey.

What was true for us in the last campaign is not true for us now. We needed that system at the time. So leave the last campaign and look at this campaign.
Our options are a bit (not a lot) different. Things have moved on. But we look to have gone backwards, by standing still. In other words, the system which was brought in to tighten us up has become the default system. In fact, it is an archaic system which has been abandoned long ago by coaches. The natural progression is to look to move from the last campaign and tweak the changes. The 2 crucial areas are full backs and cm.
We can't play the ball out of the back 4, without having a midfielder who can get into position - receive - and pass - unless the other team backs off.
Nor can we ever hope to support attacking players - like the wide midfielders, without a proper full back.
We have just about survived the first 4 qualifiers, to be still in the race for 2nd place, but our system has been cruelly exposed and imo, taken a hammering. That's the coffee smell I am talking about. The system will hardly get this squad to 2nd place - maybe - maybe not.
I did not realise Whelan could be so poor, I had previously thought he was limited but effective enough for us within a limited sphere of responsibility.
As it stands, he is not an option, until he gets back playing for his club and demonstrates his fitness and ability.

Over the next 4/5 months, if Trap just wants to find players who will fit into the old system, then we are fécked.

[Stuttgart88]

Guys, for all the optimism about blooding new players, remember it's Trappatoni we're talking about. Consider these scenarios over the course of his reign:
- Dean Kiely walked out as he wasn't getting games
- Stephen Reid has retired (maybe not long-term) as he was frozen out to some degree.
- Andy Reid has been alienated to the point of no return.
- Stephen Ireland, while I have little or no respect for, did remark Trappatoni's approach was rough around the edges.

At the same time, he keeps faith with Kilbane and introduces Paul Green, player who will invariably fall into line, simply because they do not have creative ability.

So, can we really see a revolution in the personnel of this team or even squad? Unlikely. I think if we hypothetically qualified today, we'd all pick 19/20 of the squad that would go to Ukraine/Poland. Trappatoni engineers interia in squads and a player's mentality. It's poor for us, because we really need to develop players.

In terms of the group:
Definitely fighting it out for 2nd. For all the talk about mentality, Trappatoni has still not solved the problem that is now nearing three decades old - we cannot win away. I think he uses the word mentality cleverly as we benchmark it against Staunton's team, which is not really comparable.

I don't know if Russia have it totally in them to win the group. Someone else's slip up will win it for them. No conviction in them. They were lucky last night with Macedonia missing a penalty.

This was, I think, our best chance in a long while of realistically entertaining thoughts of winning the group. It's not going to happen. But maybe best runner-up would be a consolation prize of equal value.

Some truths in there but please tell me how Steven Reid was frozen out? Point taken and agreed with re-Green, but nobody has mkade any sort of claim to the left back slot. Kilbane's inclusion at left back is still justified, mainly by default. I've been on this forum since 2003 I think and I reckon the single most expressed view here (not one I share) since then has been about how bad JO'S is as a left back.

Long & Fahey were two of our most impressive players in the last game and as subs against Russia. Trap does introduce new players and to often to good effect, unfortunately it's at Ian Harte's pace. Lawrence and Sledge are others who have impressed. OK, there are others who have yet to be given a chance, but with the exception of McCarthy and Andy Reid every single one is a marginal case in my opinion.

I'm 60% for Trap, 40% against. That balance will change depending on where we go from here. I maintain that we played well enough to win last night, we just didn't.

[SwanVsDalton]

Some truths in there but please tell me how Steven Reid was frozen out? Point taken and agreed with re-Green, but nobody has mkade any sort of claim to the left back slot. Kilbane's inclusion at left back is still justified, mainly by default. I've been on this forum since 2003 I think and I reckon the single most expressed view here (not one I share) since then has been about how bad JO'S is as a left back.

Long & Fahey were two of our most impressive players in the last game and as subs against Russia. Trap does introduce new players and to often to good effect, unfortunately it's at Ian Harte's pace. Lawrence and Sledge are others who have impressed. OK, there are others who have yet to be given a chance, but with the exception of McCarthy and Andy Reid every single one is a marginal case in my opinion.

I'm 60% for Trap, 40% against. That balance will change depending on where we go from here. I maintain that we played well enough to win last night, we just didn't.

Agree with this. Trap does introduce players he's just choosy about who and how. He tends to like having a settled squad for periods of games and then shakes things up in the interim, like last Summer when Sledge and Lawrence emerged to play crucial roles in our run-in.

It may be frustrating, particularly when he appears to be picking inferior players, but the team is much different from the one he inherited. Twenty months ago this board was crying out for Sledge, Lawrence, Foley, whoever. There's nothing to suggest in another twenty McCarthy, Ward, Wilson, whoever will be a mainstay of the team/squad.

[shakermaker1982]

Glad I'm not the only one having misgivings about the current set up. Geysir's post is spot on. We are standing still instead of building on the good stuff from the previous campaign.

I'd like to see following line up for Norway

Westwood
Foley
Dunne
St Ledger
Ward/Cunningham
Coleman
Wilson
McCarthy
Duff
Walters
Long

Keane, Kilbane and co have enough caps. It's time to test the mettle of the younger lads.

[the bear]

I'd love to see that team named for the friendly shaker, these players should of got a run out in the summer friendlies, can't see it happening tho. starting to get annoyin

i'd have ward over cunningham, dunno how cunningham merits a place in the squad, nothin against the lad just don't see what he's done to be ahead of the likes of ward and kelly. man city had 3 left backs injured last month and they still didn't consider him, played a young centre back there instead.

mccarthy and wilson must get game time. coleman or foley should get a run as well.

i want to see delap brought in for the rest of the campaign as well, he has 300 prem starts, and he's far better than whelan or green , and for a team thats strugglin to create chances his throws might make a difference, even coming of the bench.

if whelan , kilbane and green start against norway i'll hit the roof, get the finger out trap

[DeNiro]

Some truths in there but please tell me how Steven Reid was frozen out? Point taken and agreed with re-Green, but nobody has mkade any sort of claim to the left back slot. Kilbane's inclusion at left back is still justified, mainly by default. I've been on this forum since 2003 I think and I reckon the single most expressed view here (not one I share) since then has been about how bad JO'S is as a left back.

Long & Fahey were two of our most impressive players in the last game and as subs against Russia. Trap does introduce new players and to often to good effect, unfortunately it's at Ian Harte's pace. Lawrence and Sledge are others who have impressed. OK, there are others who have yet to be given a chance, but with the exception of McCarthy and Andy Reid every single one is a marginal case in my opinion.

I'm 60% for Trap, 40% against. That balance will change depending on where we go from here. I maintain that we played well enough to win last night, we just didn't.

Well, I did say he was frozen out to some degree. My rationale for this is considering a few things:
- Trappatoni made incorrect comments about Reid's career being over.
- There was definitely one squad in 2009 when Reid was fit and wasn't included.
- Reid, by his own admission, said he didn't hear from Trappatoni when he was out injured for a sustained period.

I never said Trappatoni did this on purpose, but rather the nature of some of his actions/comments and lack thereof in other cases, can lead to a player feeling/being marginalised.

Also, there's a slight difference between introducing players to the squad (i.e. actively looking and qualifying them) and playing those that are already qualified. For example, Liam Lawrence was in the squad v Sweden in 2006, St Ledger v Germany in 2006, Long's first appearance was against San Marino in 07 and Kevin Foley was first in the squad back in 2007 (I think). Ok, he's developing them. But he can't be credited with finding them. Folan was also in one of Staunton's squad.

Who has he added to the squad since he took over?
Paul Green (he wrote a letter to the FAI)
Greg Cunningham, Keith Fahey, Westwood? (could have been there under Staunton?), Leon Best, Glen Whelan, Keith Andrews.
Who have we lost?
The two Reids, Kiely

Fahey is a plus. Cunningham could be. But would people trade the two reids for Andrews and Whelan. Without doubt. Kiely for Westwood? Short-term, maybe.

The net gain is very little.
He does not actively introduce, keep and develop players. Considering him and Tardelli are always watching players, they haven't found a whole lot since Feb 08.

[Charlie Darwin]

I wouldn't trade the two Reids for Andrews and Whelan. Both have been chronically injured for the past two years - Andy doesn't take care of himself physically and Steven has had difficulty stringing more than a couple of games together for his clubs.

[tetsujin1979]

Does he have to be Steven Reid to play in centre midfield? Can't he just be, you know, better than what we've currently got?

I think if we proceed with the current formation and setup then a box to box midfielder could be exactly what we're missing.

[tetsujin1979]

Who has he added to the squad since he took over?
Paul Green (he wrote a letter to the FAI)
Greg Cunningham, Keith Fahey, Westwood? (could have been there under Staunton?), Leon Best, Glen Whelan, Keith Andrews.
Who have we lost?
The two Reids, Kiely

I dealt with this in a post more than a year ago:

So I've done some investigation on this, turns out he's actually awarded nearly as many new caps in a little over a year than Brian Kerr did in his entire reign!
I've left the new caps awarded by Mick out of the equation because he was in charge for a significantly longer than time than any of the managers since him, so obviously he's given far more debuts.
Here's my findings:

Manager    Players                  First Cap  Home Team Result AwayTeam
Giovanni   Darren O'Dea     08 September 2009    Ireland   1-0  South Africa
Trapattoni Eddie Nolan            29 May 2009    Ireland   1-1  Nigeria
           Leon Best              29 May 2009    Ireland   1-1  Nigeria
           Kieren Westwood        29 May 2009    Ireland   1-1  Nigeria
           Sean St Ledger         29 May 2009    Ireland   1-1  Nigeria
           Liam Lawrence          29 May 2009    Ireland   1-1  Nigeria
           Kevin Foley            29 May 2009    Ireland   1-1  Nigeria
           Noel Hunt         19 November 2008    Ireland   2-3  Poland
           Keith Andrews     19 November 2008    Ireland   2-3  Poland
           Caleb Folan        15 October 2008    Ireland   1-0  Cyprus
           Wesley Hoolahan        29 May 2008    Ireland   1-0  Colombia
           Glenn Whelan           24 May 2008    Ireland   1-1  Serbia
           Damien Delaney         24 May 2008    Ireland   1-1  Serbia
Total new caps: 13
    
Steve      Darron Gibson       22 August 2007    Denmark   0-4  Ireland
Staunton   Peter Murphy           26 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Bolivia
           Joe Lapira             23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Joe Gamble             23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Andy Keogh             23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Alan Bennett           23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Stephen O'Halloran     23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Daryl Murphy           23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Alex Bruce             23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Colin Doyle            23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Darren Potter          23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Joe O'Cearuill         23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Stephen Gleeson        23 May 2007    Ireland   1-1  Ecuador
           Anthony Stokes    07 February 2007 San Marino   1-2  Ireland
           Stephen Hunt      07 February 2007 San Marino   1-2  Ireland
           Shane Long        07 February 2007 San Marino   1-2  Ireland
           Paul Mc Shane      11 October 2006    Ireland   1-1  Czech Republic
           Alan O'Brien        16 August 2006    Ireland   0-4  Holland
           Stephen Kelly          24 May 2006    Ireland   0-1  Chile
           Wayne Henderson      01 March 2006    Ireland   3-0  Sweden
           Joey O'Brien         01 March 2006    Ireland   3-0  Sweden
           Kevin Doyle          01 March 2006    Ireland   3-0  Sweden
           Stephen Ireland      01 March 2006    Ireland   3-0  Sweden
Total new caps: 23

Brian      Stephen Elliott   16 November 2004    Ireland   1-0  Croatia
Kerr       Jonathan Macken     18 August 2004    Ireland   1-1  Bulgaria
           Michael Doyle         05 June 2004    Holland   0-1  Ireland
           Aidan McGeady         02 June 2004    Jamaica   0-1  Ireland
           Clive Clarke           29 May 2004    Nigeria   3-0  Ireland
           Martin Rowlands        27 May 2004    Ireland   1-0  Romania
           Jonathan Douglas     28 April 2004     Poland   0-0  Ireland
           Jason Byrne          28 April 2004     Poland   0-0  Ireland
           Paddy Kenny          31 March 2004    Ireland   2-1  Czech Republic
           Liam Miller          31 March 2004    Ireland   2-1  Czech Republic
           Andy Reid         18 November 2003    Ireland   3-0  Canada
           John Thompson     18 November 2003    Ireland   3-0  Canada
           Joe Murphy       09 September 2003    Ireland   2-2  Turkey
           Alan Quinn           30 April 2003    Ireland   1-0  Norway
           Alan Lee             30 April 2003    Ireland   1-0  Norway
Total new caps: 15

I'd also argue that more of the players awarded by Trapattoni have gone on to become mainstays in the squad, than either of his immediate predecessors.

Since then you can add Fahey, Green and McCarthy as well as bringing Coleman and Wilson into the most recent squad.

PS cut out some of the text from the original post for readability

[Alf Honn]

Interesting insight from the intrepid Tony O'D of RTE in his blog: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/f...tonyodonoghue/

Liam Lawrence was not injured. He hurt his hand in Dublin on Friday during the game against Russia but by Tuesday that was not an issue. He has had a sore leg for seven weeks now, but nothing serious enough to prevent him from playing for Ireland or Portsmouth (and scoring) during the same period. If things were that bad, like Kevin Doyle, he shouldn't have travelled.
Once he was dropped from the starting XI, like Slovakia's, Miroslav Stoch, he should at least have been put on the bench and been an option for 20 minutes or so. Instead we lost the services of two midfielders, Paul Green and Keith Fahey, to be replaced by Darron Gibson and Andy Keogh, neither of whom made much of an impact.
For set piece delivery alone Lawrence was worth a place on the bench and to be honest that remains the most likely source of goals for Ireland. Did you ever wonder if we got another penalty whether Robbie Keane, shorn of confidence, would have taken it?


- Can't imagine the dyed-hair one being too impressed with Trap.

[Jicked]

Interesting insight from the intrepid Tony O'D of RTE in his blog: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/f...tonyodonoghue/

Liam Lawrence was not injured. He hurt his hand in Dublin on Friday during the game against Russia but by Tuesday that was not an issue. He has had a sore leg for seven weeks now, but nothing serious enough to prevent him from playing for Ireland or Portsmouth (and scoring) during the same period. If things were that bad, like Kevin Doyle, he shouldn't have travelled.
Once he was dropped from the starting XI, like Slovakia's, Miroslav Stoch, he should at least have been put on the bench and been an option for 20 minutes or so. Instead we lost the services of two midfielders, Paul Green and Keith Fahey, to be replaced by Darron Gibson and Andy Keogh, neither of whom made much of an impact.
For set piece delivery alone Lawrence was worth a place on the bench and to be honest that remains the most likely source of goals for Ireland. Did you ever wonder if we got another penalty whether Robbie Keane, shorn of confidence, would have taken it?


- Can't imagine the dyed-hair one being too impressed with Trap.

To be perfectly honest, that's a load of rubbish from Tony O'Donoghue. Who'd have taken the penalty? Robbie would have, he'd have hammered it home too. Think about the complaint - that an unfit Lawrence not being on the bench was a risk, because the manager didn't consider what we'd do if our record goalscorer who has never missed a penalty for us and would certainly take the first one, missed one, and then we were given another penalty, which he for some reason would be too distraught to take, and which then Glen Whelan, Darron Gibson, Shane Long, Keith Fahey etc couldn't have taken if that bizarre situation occurred. It's like criticising Trapattoni for taking off Fahey when he tired/had a bit of a knock, in case he made another change later on, and then Given got an injury and our 3 subs had been made. I know Trap talks about the "leetle deeetails", but that's clearly just looking for an excuse to turn on a manager.

Lawrence has been struggling for weeks with a knock, playing 180 minutes against the two top seeds in two demanding games would be a huge ask, especially if his injury tightened up over the next few days. Trap has shown huge amount of confidence in Lawrence, thrusting him in to a big role. All of a sudden we're supposed to believe that he's turned on him so greatly that he doesn't even make the bench when he's fit??

A great example of the Irish media looking to stir up sh*te at every opportunity. Expected better from O'Donoghue.

[Jicked]

Oh and as for Lawrence not being too happy with Trap, just read Liam's interview in the Irish Times before the Russia game, the guy is thrilled to be playing for Ireland and for Trapattoni.

[Charlie Darwin]

I like how his first sentence says Lawrence wasn't injured and the next two list the injuries he had.

[Sullivinho]

Fairly odd and contrived piece from O'Donoghue.

[Closed Account 2]

Delaney of the FAI organised a train for supporters from Bratislava to Zilina... Nice to see him mixing it with the fans

68468_10150296207975441_10150089120710441_15340053_5417115_n.jpg

[Charlie Darwin]

Looks like he's being erotically asphyxiated. Delaney, you dirty dog...

[paul_oshea]

What was true for us in the last campaign is not true for us now. We needed that system at the time. So leave the last campaign and look at this campaign.
Our options are a bit (not a lot) different. Things have moved on. But we look to have gone backwards, by standing still. In other words, the system which was brought in to tighten us up has become the default system. In fact, it is an archaic system which has been abandoned long ago by coaches. The natural progression is to look to move from the last campaign and tweak the changes. The 2 crucial areas are full backs and cm.
We can't play the ball out of the back 4, without having a midfielder who can get into position - receive - and pass - unless the other team backs off.
Nor can we ever hope to support attacking players - like the wide midfielders, without a proper full back.
We have just about survived the first 4 qualifiers, to be still in the race for 2nd place, but our system has been cruelly exposed and imo, taken a hammering. That's the coffee smell I am talking about. The system will hardly get this squad to 2nd place - maybe - maybe not.
I did not realise Whelan could be so poor, I had previously thought he was limited but effective enough for us within a limited sphere of responsibility.
As it stands, he is not an option, until he gets back playing for his club and demonstrates his fitness and ability.

Over the next 4/5 months, if Trap just wants to find players who will fit into the old system, then we are fécked.

This is what i was talking about 3 or so days before the first game. Its what I had feared and thought would be the realisation, and geysir was one of the many singing from the same hymn sheet as everyone else on here, but the last week has opened his eyes. And I couldn't agree more with this.

[paul_oshea]

Agree with this. Trap does introduce players he's just choosy about who and how. He tends to like having a settled squad for periods of games and then shakes things up in the interim, like last Summer when Sledge and Lawrence emerged to play crucial roles in our run-in.

It may be frustrating, particularly when he appears to be picking inferior players, but the team is much different from the one he inherited. Twenty months ago this board was crying out for Sledge, Lawrence, Foley, whoever. There's nothing to suggest in another twenty McCarthy, Ward, Wilson, whoever will be a mainstay of the team/squad.

Yes but sometimes the speed at which this is done is key. Sometimes, like now, and in the past, we needed these players to be brought in at vital times, or they could have made a vital difference, and we end up dropping points indirectly.