Stephen Nolan's All Ireland team (BBC)

[eoinh]

BTW, not completely sure, having not read Ulysses, but wasn't Bloom technically not Jewish as his mother was Irish: That I think was part of the irony of his character.

Judaism is a religion not a nationality. You can be jewish and irish as you can be any religion and irish.

[lopez]

Judaism is a religion not a nationality. You can be jewish and irish as you can be any religion and irish.

That's the way it should be. Tomorrow I decide it's for me and I go see a rabbi about a little operation. But many Jews don't see it like that. Firstly, many Jews - not all orthodox - see the religion as being carried by the mother and not the father. Secondly, Hitler's race laws have muddied the waters of Judaism where a Christian convert is deemed still a Jew 'by race'. Ironically, Israel still bases its 'law of return' on Hitler's criteria of Jewishness.

Finally I'm not arguing that a Jew can't be Irish. Just whether Bloom was strictly Jewish if he didn't practice the religion.

[1MickCollins]

Finally I'm not arguing that a Jew can't be Irish. Just whether Bloom was strictly Jewish if he didn't practice the religion.

That's a valid point about not being Jewish if not born of a Jewish mother, but there is no reference to Bloom's mother not being Jewish that I am aware of. He did convert to Catholicism to marry Molly. But he had a Jewish sensibility which makes him Jewish, being Jewish is definitely more than practising your religion. I consider myself Christian though I don't practise.

Anyhow I think we'll beat Israel home and away.

[Duncan Gardner]

Mick- if you want to include me, unionists generally, uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all in your Irish nation, fine. But actually your idea of nationhood is quite narrow. We have to give up our British nationality and anyone who argues otherwise is by definition a bigot. Yawn...

Lopez- the present situation is broadly acceptable to unionists. You (ie nationalists) say we can join you if we like, but by and large we don't like. Thanks for asking, anyway.

Davros- this has nothing to do with gerrymandering. Fans in the South show little sign of wanting an all-Ireland team, with all its inevitable hassles. Show evidence this is changing, and we can discuss it. Nationalist fans in NI do want such a team because it's a party political issue there. Nationalists in NI are 12% of the population of Ireland. Fact.

PS did our mutual friend Tommy F remember to tell the Poles what a great team they'd have if they reunited with the Russians/ Germans etc...?

[Duncan Gardner]

The problems are

a) there really is very little evidence that your fans want such a team, for the oft-stated reasons. You would have to play a large proportion of the matches in Belfast, U-21s in Ballymena or Coleraine. Unionist opposition would create far worse tension than at present. We have few good players to add to your pool. The FAI would effectively have to dissolve itself;

b) if you genuinely think the tricolor is a third representative of unionism no-one will take anything you say on the subject seriously!

[Duncan Gardner]

I don't ignore your fact. I consider it irrelevant to this argument. I am not really interested in rugby union, but if that sport wants to be more inclusive, what about a six nations game at Ravenhill?

The orange in the tricolor is also irrelevant because unionists don't want to be part of your country. Nice and simple!

[eoinh]

Davros is right most fans would love an all irish side. The reason its not mentioned much is because there isnt much chance of it happening.

[drummerboy]

I think that if ROI were to fail to qualify for the next two major championships, there will be far more interest in an All-Ireland team. However the main stumbling block down here would be the blazers. These guys would lose their trips to international matches. People forget that these blazers and their apprentices travel free of charge to hundreds of the schoolboy, underage and amateur international matches throughout the continent.

[lopez]

Lopez- the present situation is broadly acceptable to unionists. You (ie nationalists) say we can join you if we like, but by and large we don't like. Thanks for asking, anyway.

The door's always open, in case you change your mind (like the Turkish cypriots! )

[1MickCollins]

[QUOTE=Duncan Gardner]Mick- if you want to include me, unionists generally, uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all in your Irish nation, fine. But actually your idea of nationhood is quite narrow. We have to give up our British nationality and anyone who argues otherwise is by definition a bigot. Yawn...
QUOTE]

Unionism is a sham, it was born out of anti-Catholicism not love of England/Queen.

Unionists haved prefered to dominate ( and they needed Britain to do this, if they didn't need Britain they wouldn't be unionists ) their artificial statelet rather than being a minority in an united Ireland, which was understandable certainly up until the last few years and maybe still is, and I have no argument with the current wishes of the people of NI. But today with an expanded EU it seems an almost comical dispute. Try explaining the problem to an American not of Irish ancestry.

Do you think the English in 2004 reciprocate your loyalty to the Queen\England\UK? None of the English people I know and work with understand the "loyalty" of Ulster protestants with the exception of those of the pre-WW2 generation who still remember the empire.

[brine2]

I think Northern Ireland should become an independent state, free from Blair and Bertie.

[lopez]

I think Northern Ireland should become an independent state, free from Blair and Bertie.

Last time I looked, an independent NI had about 2% of the NI population's electoral support, including the Rev. Hugh Ross (leader of the Ulster Independence Party) who wanted this state to be called Ulster and include Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. The fact that such a nine-county state would, democratically, vote itself into an all-Ireland republic is of no importance to someone with an 'unorthodox' past like Ross. Good luck with your campaign!

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez- of course any rigid political attitude can change- but as I'm sure you noticed, the proposed compromise deal in Cyprus achieved majority Turkish support only with the loss of a majority of Greeks! Ironically though, the latter are into the EU, the former not...

Mick- there's an obvious answer to the 'sure the border's irrelevant now, with the EU and everything' argument. We could stop arguing about the border, but I think I'll wait until the French/ Germans, Spanish/ Portuguese, Italians/ Austrians and Dutch/ Belgians abolish theirs first. Foreigners may find Ulster politics (especially the summer-long fancy dress parade) hilarious, but I think they recognise that at heart it's about nationality. Just like many of their own disputes.

Brine- if that ever happened NI would be like a bigger, poorer Andorra. Their joint head honchos are Chirac and a Spanish bishop.

[lopez]

Lopez- of course any rigid political attitude can change- but as I'm sure you noticed, the proposed compromise deal in Cyprus achieved majority Turkish support only with the loss of a majority of Greeks! Ironically though, the latter are into the EU, the former not...

Which may soon be the case viz a viz the two parts of Ireland. Just remembered how many farmers of good presbyterian stock were keen to have their cows listed as 'Irish' during the 'foot and mouth' fiasco.

It is of course interesting to see certain people down south scoff at the idea of an all-Ireland team because the North have ATM cr*p players. Have they never heard about a little thing called the future?

[Duncan Gardner]

Davros- I don't see that unionist rugby union fans are being hypocritical. They're broadly happy with an all-Ireland side, though they'd prefer more Ulster players in it and the occasional game at Ravenhill. And maybe a few cosmetic changes to flags, anthems etc.

Those I know who also support NI in football generally give more allegiance to the Ulster side. With its high profile locally and reasonable level of success, maybe they're less bothered about O'Driscoll's boys now being effectively a RoI team.

But, if the above was to change, and Ulster rugby was to break away from Dublin, you'd be the first accusing them not merely of unionist bigotry, but probably also of hypocrisy?

I know the argument that 'all other sports are united, why not football?' Very briefly,

a) football's popularity distinguishes it from every other sport in Ireland bar GAA

b) without getting into the rights and wrongs of GAA's rulebook, they have effectively excluded unionists (18% of the population of Ireland) for decades. Personally I'm glad thisis changing, but it can't be ignored in the past

c) some lower profile sports, most notably boxing, have been organised on partition lines. This partly explains why someone like McGuigan fought out of Belfast as a professional, while northern amateurs have represented the Republic in the Olympics etc.

Lopez- a fair point, but this argument isn't really about playing strength. The Republic have established themselves in UEFA's top 10 over the last ten years, but adding Damien Johnson or big Aaron isn't suddenly going to let them take the next step to World domination

It's all about headcounts. And from a nationalist point of view, they're always likely to outnumber the unionists in Ireland by four or five to one. For the unionist answer, see threads passim.

[1MickCollins]

b) without getting into the rights and wrongs of GAA's rulebook, they have effectively excluded unionists (18% of the population of Ireland) for decades. Personally I'm glad thisis changing, but it can't be ignored in the past

Duncan, why would a unionist want to join the Gaelic Athletic Association and what bearing does that have anyhow on a A-I soccer team?

The GAA was formed for the purposes of creating ( or recreating ) a sense of Irishness and was political from the start, I am no fan of the GAA and no fan of sporting orgs which are political.

Rule 21 says: "Ineligible to join the G.A.A. are members of the Britih armed forces and Police . And a member of the GAA participating in dances, or similar entertainment, promoted by or under the personage of such bodies shall incur suspension of at least 3 months".

Which is in line with how I always have seen the GAA primarily nationalist, Catholic and conserative, even today after they voted 3 to 1 to remove this rule that is still how I see the GAA.

A unionist joinging the GAA is like a man joining the ICA or a loyalist joining the Sinn Fein.

The GAA welcomes protestants with open arms as we all know, but wasn't this rule was more of a problem for Catholics/nationalists/protestants serving in the RUC than for unionists?


I think an A-I socccer team will happen when the time is right, Maybe 20 - 30 years from now. But if there were to be an A-I team then wouldn't they have to merge the EL and IL? If that happened today I think that would be a violent disaster!

I think the hearts and minds of a lot of people will have to change first, I have more faith in future generations than the present ones.

[Duncan Gardner]

Mick- why shouldn't a unionist join a GAA club if he wants to be a hurler, or just socialise with his friends? In practice some do, but it's generally difficult for them. In Northern Ireland, the ban on 'British security forces' extends effectively to their civilian staffs and contractors- quite a large proportion of the population. In practice, there it's come to mean a euphemism for unionists.

This is all relevant to the argument that football could adapt to all-Ireland organisation like every other sport. In practice, GAA doesn't have that because unionists in NI feel excluded.

Your saying "a unionist joinging the GAA is like a man joining the ICA or a loyalist joining the Sinn Fein" is negative and exaggerated. I've been in plenty of GAA clubs in both Dublin and London and never felt unwelcome. Unfortunately, not yet in Belfast...

[lopez]

Fair point,DG......but ever thought why your average GAA member in the osc.might be none too keen on making members of the puppet state government or agents thereof,especially welcome in the first place......a tad paranoid of unionists to assume they're all labelled with the same brush,but with this collective mindset & typical of their arrogance in this respect!

Dav, you don't have to be a 'planter', 'puppet' etc to infiltrate. E.g.: Gypo Nolan O'Callaghan and the bloke that got a bath.

[1MickCollins]

Mick- why shouldn't a unionist join a GAA club if he wants to be a hurler, or just socialise with his friends? In practice some do, but it's generally difficult for them. In Northern Ireland, the ban on 'British security forces' extends effectively to their civilian staffs and contractors- quite a large proportion of the population. In practice, there it's come to mean a euphemism for unionists.

This is all relevant to the argument that football could adapt to all-Ireland organisation like every other sport. In practice, GAA doesn't have that because unionists in NI feel excluded.

Your saying "a unionist joinging the GAA is like a man joining the ICA or a loyalist joining the Sinn Fein" is negative and exaggerated. I've been in plenty of GAA clubs in both Dublin and London and never felt unwelcome. Unfortunately, not yet in Belfast...

Your's must be a very watered down unionism. Any decent unioinst would call you a turn-coat.

[Duncan Gardner]

Thanks for that, Mick. I hadn't realised you were a expert on decent Ulster unionism. How do I become one?