QuoteSee my post above.Originally Posted by the 12 th man
joking aside though,this guy is in deep do do.there is a named fbi agent who is willling to come to ireland to testify to what the computer records show.
( as regards who was a customer etc.)
correct in that nothing is proved yet,but he is a gonner
See my post above.
Have Boot Disk, will travel
must have gone by your post there peadar,
it says it all really
If everything in that article is true, surely someone must resign/lose their job over such a f*ckup on such a serious crime?
But then again isn't it the FF/PD way to never resign or be fired, no matter how bad the mess?
Disturbing reflections on gardai
Mary Raftery
It was when they said they had cleared space in the city morgue that one really began to wonder about the sanity surrounding the authorities' response to the May Day events.
It is one thing to be prepared, but quite another to become so consumed with paranoia as to lose all touch with reality. During the May Day weekend, Ireland moved firmly through the looking glass.
On one level, it was absurd - the Army's chemical, biological and nuclear unit (whatever that is) on alert, the Navy patrolling Dublin Bay, the Air Force keeping our skies safe, gardaí questioning people about buying onions (aka dangerous projectiles) in Moore Street.
There are however aspects of the events leading up to the EU summit at Farmleigh which have more disturbing ramifications.
Bertie Ahern's identification before the event of protesters as "mindless hooligans" set the scene. Dublin appeared to perceive itself as the latest stage in a linear progression from Seattle to Genoa in terms of anti-globalisation protest.
Concrete evidence for this was scant. Anticipation of an invasion of thousands of diehard anarchists intent on causing mayhem on Dublin streets appeared to be based on little more than an inaccurate reading of the undoubtedly violent protests of Seattle, Gothenburg and Genoa.
The truth of what actually happened on the streets of those cities took time to emerge, and never received the same coverage as the riots themselves. In Seattle, hundreds of thousands protested in 1999 at the World Trade Organisation summit. A city council investigation subsequently identified serious police inadequacy and brutality as being a major cause of the violence. The mayor and the police chief were singled out for blame, with the latter forced to take early retirement.
The Seattle City Council concluded that "gratuitous assaults" by police had "compromised the civil rights of citizens and often provoked further disturbance".
In Genoa, it was the G8 summit in 2001 which drew the protesters. The Italian media was full of alarmist accounts anticipating mayhem. The police listed the tactics to be used against them by demonstrators in the most lurid terms. Anarchists were supposed to be preparing bags of HIV-infected blood to hurl at them and at anyone else who got in their way.
With hundreds injured as a result of police brutality, the Italian police finally admitted that they had used excessive force and acted illegally. While there had certainly been a hard-line group of protesters intent on causing damage, the police had inexplicably ignored them and concentrated their aggression on the main body of peaceful protesters.
Hundreds were arrested, many not allowed bail or even a phone call. There is overwhelming evidence that many were beaten and degraded while in custody. Most were subsequently either released without charge, or faced only minor charges. A plethora of inquiries ensued; scores of police were investigated with the three most senior policemen in Genoa disciplined and transferred.
The protester who died was Carlo Giuliani (23), shot by a panicked 20-year-old officer, who like his colleagues was armed.
The Swedish police in Gothenburg, the scene of anti-globalisation protests in 2001, were also armed. They shot and seriously injured several unarmed demonstrators. Yet again, independent investigations blamed police overreaction and brutality for increasing the level of violence.
The lessons are clear. Heavy-handed armed response to protesters invariably leads to escalating violence. Yet when Dublin's turn came, the gardaí announced through their representative organisation they wanted guns to deal with the anticipated May Day protest.
This not only represents a dire failure to learn anything from the past, but also a denial of the experience of hundreds of gardaí who have been in and led UN civilian police operations in trouble spots around the world.
I had the good fortune to observe them in action in Namibia at the time of that country's difficult path to independence. Although one of the few unarmed police contingents in the international force, the Irish made and won the case for the UN police not to carry guns.
Through dialogue and compromise rather than physical force, the gardaí set a superb example of professional policing in Namibia, and later in Cambodia. They single-handedly convinced both the international community and fellow officers from around the world of the effectiveness and the virtues of an unarmed police force.
Given this remarkable international influence, it is appalling to hear gardaí now turn their backs on our highly successful tradition of an unarmed police force, and demand guns to fight what were really only the phantoms of their own paranoia.
No doubt these same gardaí would welcome the truly frightening proposal from the German and Italian governments to create a specialised, heavily-armed EU riot squad to be parachuted into any city with a summit and/or protest. If there was ever an area in which we should not follow the European model, this should certainly be it.
© The Irish Times
I think that Ive read her stuff before, and I cant say that I agree with her, she seems a bit pro-crusty for my right-sided views
I think that she underestimates the trouble that is involved with the G8 protesters, I cant remember the last time a protest didnt turn violent, with the wilfullness of the protestors who often come prepaired for trouble. Her views on the Gardai wanting guns was a bit OTT IMO. I dont remember hearing anything about them wanting guns? Also, they DIDNT have guns, so I think that she kind of defeated her own point about not using guns/the gardai were over handed. Her quote for Bertie seems to be exactly what happened, so why is she trying to say that he was paranoid, and if the hooligans can go to Seatlle, Genoa or Gothenbourg, then why not Dublin? ALso, with so many heads of state in one place, it was ripe for a terrorist attack, Im sure that Al quida would atleast have thought about attacking them. I think that the Gardai did an excellent job, with violence kept to a minimum and AFIK no police brutality claims.
Shouldnt she be commending the Gardai for a job well done, and maybe for setting a blueprint on how to handle thses things in the future?
As I say, we're just young & a bit nieve.
Isn't it amazing how people can twist what they like from articles....
Ignore the FACTs when it suits you.
The police in Seattle, Genoa, and Gothenburg caused as much, if not more, violence than any protestor.
A tiny group caused a mild disturbance in Dublin. The same weekend, TWICE as many people were arrested for disturbances in Killarney at the rally.
You are spending far too much time listening and believeing the hectoring paranoia of McDowell.
Yeah Patsh, you're right. With all those heads of government in town, we had no need of security. And when GW Bush arrives here in a few weeks, give the cops a week off. It'll be fine.
In the current political climate, we need to ensure security is as high as possible. The fact that nothing happened in Dublin is a credit to the gardai, not a reason to give out. The gardai contained a situation and didn't allow it to escalate, like it did in other cities.
It is NOT her opinion about the investigations into the disturbances in the 3 cities mentioned.
Investigations found as FACTUAL that the police in these cities were the cause of the majority of the violence.
I'm not saying that security was not needed on the day here.
What was not needed was the hyping up of the "threat", the ott policing of a minor protest, and the use, however mild, of water cannon and riot police.
The only opinons around on Mayday were the completely unfounded, wildly off the mark opinions of senior Gardai and the current government.
I am not excusing the idiots who were messing on the streets, but I do not think we must all accept unquestioningly the paranoia of some members of the police and government in this country.
You seem quite happy to accept every bit of baseless, mindless sh*t your party and their partners come out with.
Some of us can think for ourselves.
There was 1 person more arrested in Killarney over the course of the rally than was arrested in the one spot in Dublin
Spot on patsh. The paranoia you speak of has sinister undertones about the future of policing and civil liberties in this country.
The Irish Times article was spot on and it's very very rare that I say that. Like patsh I've very little time for the chancers who were protesting on May 1 (ever tried asking one of them what Globalisation is? They don't even know!) but I would defend their right to protest without the heavy-handed policing that seems to be taken for granted these days.
Has everyone forgotten the disgraceful policing of May 1 2002? Bertie, the Mad Mullah McDowell and the GRA have successfully hidden those scenes amid the hysteria over Seattle/Genoa etc. That's the point that the IT article was making.
KOH
No One Likes Us, We Don't Care
Gee, you seem to becoming influenced by the waffle lessons from the local cumainn.
Just how long does it take to teach your common or garden FFer on how to give anything but a sensible reply?
So Eric, you have more people being arrested at a social and sporting event, than you had at an event that Gardai told us needed the army, hospitals and the morgue on standby. So now that the senior Gardai have the figures, can we expect water cannon and riot police at the next rally event?
You said it was an opinion. I pointed out that the article did contain facts about the police in Seattle, Genoa and Gothenburg.
You do not ever demur from the party line. I've asked you questions on this and other threads which you NEVER answer. Your stock reponse normally runs along the lines of "Micheal Lowry....Emmett Stagg......"
When you get asked any sort of question where you might have to address the truth about the lies, corruption and criminality in the party of your choice you parrott out the party stance or simpy avoid answering.
I know you are an intelligent man, and enjoy the banter with you, but lately your avoidance of these questions has increasingly dissappointed me.
I put the article up there to stir a little debate. My thoughts are always my own. I'm not so sure whether your thoughts are your own lately. Is it because its election time?
1 person more arrested in Killarney over Friday, Saturday and Sunday than there was at the protests in the space of 40 minutes and you are trying to compare both scenes!!!!!
Are you seriously trying to equate the messing in Dublin with a "G7 riot" ?
Eric, the point I'm making is that the pre-Mayday carry on from senior Gardai and government would have led one to believe that we were under imminent attack from every violent anarchist in the world. There was absolutely no basis whatsoever for these statements and the competely over the top security arrangements for possible protest. I'm not complaining about the security around the 25 heads of government, but closing the Pheonix Park, hyping up the "Threat", the ridiculous sight of water cannon and riot police confronting and outnumbering a good humored crowd, is far too much of the boy who cried wolf.
Unless you are a member of An Garda Siochana or of one of the other police forces around Europe then there is no way you can say that there was no basis for the security arrangements that were put in place for the weekend.
The Gardai worked closely with all the other European police forces and after a lot of intelligence gathering had good grounds to believe that the situation was gonna be a lot worse as regards violence. The Gardai, for there part, did exactly what they are employed to do.
The Gardai can say whatever they want to, and who can dispute it?
This "intelligence" has proved to be utterly worthless and its not the first time.
And your last sentance has completely proved my point.
"The Gardai, for there part, did exactly what they are employed to do"
Which is to carry out the bidding of an intolerant coterie of arrogant incompetents, some of whom are criminals, who will not brook any other opinion but their own.
Welcome to the Police state.
Some of the most important political figures in the world were only a few Km from where that "riot" took place and you think the Gardaí were wrong to take control of the situation? If there had been a terrorist incident it would have been an International incident. The threat was very real and the Gardaí would have been utterly unprofessional not to take the precautionary approach they did.
Have Boot Disk, will travel
So why do you slate the Gardai when they are just doing what they are told by the Government????
Aim your criticism at the government and not the Gardai
I have consistently said Senior Gardai, Eric.
If youbothered to read my posts, I did not complain about the security for the Heads of State. This "situation" was a small number of people standing on a street, excercising their right to protest. Senior Gardai decided that they were not to be allowed to do this and used water cannon and riot police to get rid of them. No matter what you think, this is a completely undemocratic, heavy handed and intolerant approach.Some of the most important political figures in the world were only a few Km from where that "riot" took place and you think the Gardaí were wrong to take control of the situation
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