Under 19's away for 10 days in Bulgaria

**harps1954** · 14/10/2010, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by osarusan

Are we sure he pulled out of the squad through injury? Is there evidence of that, apart from Alf Honn's post above?

According to the rule quoted above, a player failing to join an international panel may not play for his club for 5 calendar days - have Derry breached this?

Here: http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...id=4&Itemid=12 from the FAI website.

**osarusan** · 14/10/2010, 10:48 AM

Pulled out on Sunday the 3rd, and he played against Shels 6 days later. Is that extra day crucial?

EDIT: Actually the rule states that a player who pulls out of the squad can't play a fixture within 5 days of the international fixture, not within 5 days of the day they pull out of the squad.

So if the underage game was against Luxembourg on Thurday the 7th, he shouldn't have been able to play on Saturday the 9th. Is that right?

**harps1954** · 14/10/2010, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by osarusan

And he played against Shels 6 days later. Is that extra day crucial?

I wouldn't think so, as the under-19 international games were on the Thursday, Saturday and Tuesday. It would have been five days from the date of any of these games (probably starting with the Thursday game). So technically, he should not have played against Shels last week as it was within the five days of the first under-19 game.

Not sure anything will happen Derry, unless Shels (or anyone for that matter) made a complaint to the FAI. If they stick to this rule, Derry would be in trouble. However, has this ever happened before? I'm not sure. And, if so, what action (if any) did the FAI take?

It all depends on what Shelbourne decide to do (or Monaghan, Waterford, Limerick or Cork for that matter). Outside of that, it doesn't really matter to anyone else.

**Mr A** · 14/10/2010, 11:04 AM

The FAI gave injury as the reason.

U19s played on the 7th, 9th and 12th. McEleney played for Derry on the 1st and 9th.

**Buile Shuibhne** · 14/10/2010, 12:36 PM

Ollie Byrne would have been in there like a shot - creating mayhem.

In contrast - the current Shels Board of Management tend to keep a low profile on this sort of thing.

Not so sure they would lodge a complaint?

**passerrby** · 14/10/2010, 12:37 PM

cant see Derry being that naive as to pull a stroke like this they must realise there is a possible sanction IF this happened

also dont think its up to any club to lodge any objection but for the league to act if there is any problem

**VinnyDCFC** · 14/10/2010, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by harps1954

From the FAI Rule Book:

Harps1954

Do you have a link for that quote you've used?
Thanks

**harps1954** · 14/10/2010, 1:17 PM

Vinny, I don't have a link to the FAI Rulebook rule that I quoted - although I think it might be somewhere on the FAI website.

However, the link to the rules in the Participation Agreement is here: http://www.airtricityleague.com/inde...tion-agreement

**monsexile** · 14/10/2010, 1:34 PM

If this was a senior international match, Derry would be in trouble.
Sanction:
If a club refuses to release a player or neglects to do so despite the provisions
of this annexe, the FIFA Players’ Status Committee shall furthermore request
the association to which the club belongs to declare any match(es) in which
the player took part to have been lost by the club concerned. Any points thus
gained by the club in question shall be forfeited. Any match contested according
to the cup system shall be regarded as having been won by the opposing team,
irrespective of the score.
Source:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...sfer2010_e.pdf
However, I have it on good authority that this does not apply to youth internationals.

**Mr A** · 14/10/2010, 1:36 PM

FAI rule book: http://www.fai.ie/images/stories/pdf..._Book_2009.pdf

RULE 54. POWER TO DEAL WITH PLAYERS REFUSAL TO PLAY IN REPRESENTATIVE
MATCHES
Any player selected to play in any International or other match arranged by The Association and who without good
and sufficient cause refuses to comply with the arrangements for the playing of the match, or fails to play in such
match, may be adjudged to be guilty of misconduct, and such player, or any Club which may be deemed to have
encouraged such player to such misconduct, may be dealt with as the Disciplinary Bodies shall deem appropriate.

**harps1954** · 14/10/2010, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by monsexile

If this was a senior international match, Derry would be in trouble.
Sanction:
If a club refuses to release a player or neglects to do so despite the provisions
of this annexe, the FIFA Players’ Status Committee shall furthermore request
the association to which the club belongs to declare any match(es) in which
the player took part to have been lost by the club concerned. Any points thus
gained by the club in question shall be forfeited. Any match contested according
to the cup system shall be regarded as having been won by the opposing team,
irrespective of the score.
Source:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...sfer2010_e.pdf
However, I have it on good authority that this does not apply to youth internationals.

There's nothing in the participation agreement which states that the match has to be a senior International. See again the ruling below:

Any Participant Club refusing to release a player(s) selected for an International or Representative panel
under the jurisdiction of the FAI shall not be entitled to play such players(s) until a period of five (5)
calendar days has elapsed from the date of such fixture(s). Any selected player failing to join the panel shall
not be permitted to play for his Club for the same period. Call-ups of registered players by Associations
other than the FAI for International duty are governed by the regulations of FIFA.

**Flexy** · 14/10/2010, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by harps1954

There's nothing in the participation agreement which states that the match has to be a senior International. See again the ruling below:

Guys stop clutching at straws with this, it is only an Under 19 game, if it was an U21 or Senior international then maybe he should have stayed with the squad. At the end of the day who pays the guys wages Derry or the FAI, if the FAI have problems with this then go to UEFA as players should not be away from their clubs for 10days anyway to play in any youth tournament. At 18 yrs of age Derry is more important to him and the Ireland Under 19's. Remember matches had to be moved from Friday night because of the match in Dublin does that help our clubs no, so get over it and put it to bed

**Dodge** · 14/10/2010, 2:05 PM

Whether its important or not to the player is immaterial. Derry CLEARLY brokes the rules here. You'd think the last couple of years would've thought them to be a bit less pigheaded

If he was that important, a quick call asking for his release from the international set up could've been made. I've no doubt the FAI would've been accomodating

**Sam_Heggy** · 14/10/2010, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Flexy

Guys stop clutching at straws with this, it is only an Under 19 game, if it was an U21 or Senior international then maybe he should have stayed with the squad. At the end of the day who pays the guys wages Derry or the FAI, if the FAI have problems with this then go to UEFA as players should not be away from their clubs for 10days anyway to play in any youth tournament. At 18 yrs of age Derry is more important to him and the Ireland Under 19's. Remember matches had to be moved from Friday night because of the match in Dublin does that help our clubs no, so get over it and put it to bed

Why would an Under 19 game carry less significance than the Under 21's?
Are you 100% sure that playing for Derry City is more important to Pat McEleney than playing for his country? That's a pretty big statement to make on a players behalf.

**Flexy** · 14/10/2010, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Whether its important or not to the player is immaterial. Derry CLEARLY brokes the rules here. You'd think the last couple of years would've thought them to be a bit less pigheaded

If he was that important, a quick call asking for his release from the international set up could've been made. I've no doubt the FAI would've been accomodating

Dodge what rules have Derry broken with regards this. The player obviously felt it was more important to play for his club in such an important game than play for his country on this occassion. I ask you this, what would you have done if it was you. Myself personally Id put my club first as they are paying my wages every week

**Mr A** · 14/10/2010, 3:07 PM

If he was deemed to be ineligible this rule applies:

RULE 86. INELIGIBILITY
1. If a player takes part in an official match despite being ineligible, his team shall be sanctioned by
forfeiting the match and paying a fine. A sanction may also be imposed on a player and/or the person in
charge of the team if they knew or ought to have known of the ineligibility.
2. If a player takes part in a friendly match despite being ineligible, his team shall be sanctioned by forfeiting
the match and paying a fine.
3. Unregistered Players and Suspended Players are deemed to be ineligible.

i.e. Shels get the points.

**pineapple stu** · 14/10/2010, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Flexy

Dodge what rules have Derry broken with regards this.

It's been very clearly posted in the thread what rule they broke.

No harm to you, but you're taking "My club can do no wrong" to new heights here.

**Dodge** · 14/10/2010, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by Flexy

The player obviously felt it was more important to play for his club in such an important game than play for his country on this occassion. I ask you this, what would you have done if it was you. Myself personally Id put my club first as they are paying my wages every week

None of that matters.

Derry broke the FAI rules by playing him. Its a black and white case.

I don't care if they're punished or not, but to claim they didn't break the rules is bizarre

**VinnyDCFC** · 14/10/2010, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by harps1954

There's nothing in the participation agreement which states that the match has to be a senior International. See again the ruling below:

I'm trying to get my head around all of this but where did Derry City refuse to release a player?

Any Participant Club refusing to release a player(s) selected for an International or Representative panel under the jurisdiction of the FAI shall not be entitled to play such players(s) until a period of five (5) calendar days has elapsed from the date of such fixture(s). Any selected player failing to join the panel shall not be permitted to play for his Club for the same period

**osarusan** · 14/10/2010, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Flexy

Dodge what rules have Derry broken with regards this. The player obviously felt it was more important to play for his club in such an important game than play for his country on this occassion. I ask you this, what would you have done if it was you. Myself personally Id put my club first as they are paying my wages every week

The thing is that it doesn't matter a damn what you think. It doesn't matter that Derry pay his wages, and it doesn't matter if he wanted to play for Derry instead of the underage team. What matters is if Derry broke the rules or not.

If they did (and it seems thay did), they should be punished. It really shouldn't be up to Shels to object though, but I think they'd be doing exactly the right thing if they did.

Originally Posted by VinnyDCFC

I'm trying to get my head around all of this but where did Derry City refuse to release a player?

Is there is a distinction made between refusing to release a player and telling the FAI a player can't go as he's injured? There may be, but my first reaction is that they're the same thing.