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Thread: Ciaran Clark

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngirish View Post
    What they don't seem to understand is that almost everyone raising such points recognises the difference between a Kevin Kilbane or a Gary Breen (i.e. someone who though born abroad has grown up acutely aware of, and consequently being proud of their Irish roots ) and an Andy Townsend or Clinton Morrison who obviously only threw their lot in with us because they realised they weren't going to ever get a chance to represent the land of their first love - England.
    Clinton spent most of his summer holidays as a kid in North County Dublin so I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that he wasn't aware or proud of his Irish roots. It's never as clearcut as you think.
    "There's man all over for you, blaming on his boots the fault of his feet" - Samuel Beckett, Waiting for Godot

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    Quote Originally Posted by boovidge View Post
    the guy's very young, breaking into a premiership side and has been linked with clubs like man united. if he really wanted to play for england he would have waited a little longer don't you think? i have more reservations about someone like noble who has clearly waited until the england train has left the station.
    I have nothing against Clark personally. I would simply question why he hasn't played for any of our youth teams and chose instead to represent England. I agree he is at an age where it is still very possible that he may turn out to be good enough to represent England in the future and perhaps he switched out of a genuine preference to represent us or perhaps the lure of an immediate cap swayed his hand. I can't say either way and I'll support him if he lines out for us.

    International football teams should as much as possible be made up of players who have a strong affinity with the country that they are representing ( I would like to use the word citizens here but citizenship is thrown at promising young footballers in a way that most other occupations could only dream about). If you want to see guys playing their hearts out for a team that they have no affinity for other than that of a professional sense then watch club football.
    Last edited by youngirish; 25/10/2010 at 5:24 PM.

  3. #203
    Seasoned Pro SwanVsDalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    Effort's got nothing to do with it.
    Effort would be less relevant if our team was in fact being overrun by a mercenary bunch of passport grabbers, as you've suggested. But it isn't, so effort, of course, is relevant. It's important to note that the few players who fit the previous description have represented us with pride.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    Anyway given the chance to play international football is going to try their best out of professional pride - its not like they're forced to be out their against will (unless they're Stephen Ireland)
    Barry Ferguson? Nicolas Anelka? Antonio Cassano? There are numerous examples, both in and out of the Irish setup, suggesting otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    Clark's statement is clearly worded to go out of his way to sound honorable about his career move but even so he still effectively states he's going to plays for us bacause he cant see his England career getting any further.
    Talk about suggestive reading. What about wanting to play for 'his parents and himself'? What about it being an offer he couldn't turn down? Can't you see that maybe, just maybe, this is a decision he wanted to make on a personal level as much as a professional one?

    Regardless since he grew up with English friends, English coaches, plays at an English club predominantly followed by English fans, it is natural he would want to play up or at least mention the honour and commitment he felt towards them. After all just because he played for England, it doesn't make him any less Irish. It's simply not that black and white - or green and white if you prefer.

    Finally who knows if he actually thought he had no chance with England - I really doubt it though since Gary Cahill's in and out of squads and Clark's a higher rated prospect round Villa Park. If he was really as career minded as you suggest he would've stuck it out with England and then declared for us seven years down the line when he still wasn't capped.

    It's a shame some people think this way - I think a young guy to taking such definitive, life-changing action showed bravery and a real desire to play for us.
    Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 25/10/2010 at 7:08 PM.
    Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?

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  5. #204
    Seasoned Pro cfdh_edmundo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    Yes I meant in Europe as in playing for European countries amongst who there is an entire ONE exception to this on the continent - that of Obreniak. FIFA constantly seems to change its rules these days to appease nagging Third World countries. The old rules regarding eligibilitywere there in the first place place to ensure footballers didn't try swapping countries like they did clubs to suit their (adjusted) career aspirations. Its sad to see us going down that line as well.
    Why are you limiting it to European nations vs European Nations? Why is Obraniak more of a valid example than say Meghni or Kevin Boateng ? Fifa set the rules for international selection (not UEFA). You're just narrowing the scope to try and fudge your arguement into a more acceptable view, just like excluding USSR / Yugoslavia issues.


    I'm not sure what you're getting at by "nagging Third World countries" sounds a bit sinister, but even then it's not just these supposed Third World countries that have such players playing for them (e.g. Jermaine Jones plays for the USA).

    Also you're wrong again to say it's just ONE exception, off the top of my head I can think of another - Mevlut Erdinc (born in Jura, France - same town as Belhadj, played for France u17s, now plays for the Turkish National team, only ever lived in France Montbeliard and Paris). That's two out of the 30 odd countries left as "valid" under your criteria (i.e. not ex USSR, not ex Yugoslavia, not "Celtic country" - which knocks out over 20 UEFA countries).
    "You have to be fair in football - you have to be honest and well done to you if you've won, but you have to win in a good way." T. Henry, Stade de France, Arsenal 1 - 2 Barcelona, 16-05-2006.

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    Being a SuperPaddy (the most superior breed of Irish patriots), I can say I have no issue with Clark changing from England to Ireland.
    May he go on now to represent the land of his parents.

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  8. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngirish View Post
    I have nothing against Clark personally. I would simply question why he hasn't played for any of our youth teams and chose instead to represent England. I agree he is at an age where it is still very possible that he may turn out to be good enough to represent England in the future and perhaps he switched out of a genuine preference to represent us or perhaps the lure of an immediate cap swayed his hand. I can't say either way and I'll support him if he lines out for us.
    Apologies if this has been covered already, but was Clark ever approached by the FAI before now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo View Post
    Why are you limiting it to European nations vs European Nations? Why is Obraniak more of a valid example than say Meghni or Kevin Boateng ? Fifa set the rules for international selection (not UEFA). You're just narrowing the scope to try and fudge your arguement into a more acceptable view, just like excluding USSR / Yugoslavia issues.


    I'm not sure what you're getting at by "nagging Third World countries" sounds a bit sinister, but even then it's not just these supposed Third World countries that have such players playing for them (e.g. Jermaine Jones plays for the USA).

    Also you're wrong again to say it's just ONE exception, off the top of my head I can think of another - Mevlut Erdinc (born in Jura, France - same town as Belhadj, played for France u17s, now plays for the Turkish National team, only ever lived in France Montbeliard and Paris). That's two out of the 30 odd countries left as "valid" under your criteria (i.e. not ex USSR, not ex Yugoslavia, not "Celtic country" - which knocks out over 20 UEFA countries).
    I've been to Africa and they need all the charitable aid they can get from their former colonial masters, we can live without their donations though I'm sure.
    Yugoslavia players i.e Bosnian Serbs born in former Yugoslavia, Kosovan refugees etc are a seperate political issue equivalent to the 'should Shane Duffy be allowed to represent Republic of Ireland?' matter I prefer not to get involved in, there's no Clark or St Ledger types I can see in the former USSR.
    As for the other couple of individuals you use to illustrate your point these are what as known as anomalies and do not quite compare to the literally hundreds of English or Scottish players that have featured at various levels for Ireland the last couple of decades at least. Look at any Ireland squad at any level from under-17 up and its likely to be swarming with English players. This obsessive family tree hunting and going round every club in the UK begging for players to represent us is nothing but a stain on our national team and the likes of Liam Brady who say its necessary because we're a small country should look at the examples of several other small countries in Europe who manage to qualify for tournaments with their own players. Do we go hunting for British politicians with Irish relatives to represent us in Parliament or international organisations? No and i'm sure its not because some of them couldnt do a better job than what we've got.
    Its time to reclaim the Irish football team for the Irish .Sorry if this offends those who have become accustomed to pretending that Englishmen with an Irish ancestor who take advantage of this fallback international footballing representative option are actually bonafide Irishmen whereas if they'd taken any other career path would probably never have given a second thought to the notion of their supposed Irishness. 1990 and 1994 were fun to watch growing up but they did not signify we were a great footballing nation suddenly. The sad thing is we've probably got a generation of Irish players now (those who actually grew up supporting us) who could be good enough to qualify for a major tournament in their own right without the assistance of all the usual brigade plastics and mercenaries we use to puff out our numbers. If it gives you all comfort to go on pretending then be my guest but your justifications are delusional!

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    My only query is how come you have been thanked for your input on 5 occasions!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    examples of several other small countries in Europe who manage to qualify for tournaments with their own players.
    like who for example?? Do these countries have a similar emigration pattern engraved in the past and recent history?

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    First Team Sullivinho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Apologies if this has been covered already, but was Clark ever approached by the FAI before now?
    I don't think they realised he was eligible until Richard Dunne tipped them off. Any version of this story I've heard/read credits Dunney.

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    Seasoned Pro CraftyToePoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullivinho View Post
    I don't think they realised he was eligible until Richard Dunne tipped them off. Any version of this story I've heard/read credits Dunney.
    a chronic failing in the FAI scouting/trawling if this is true, and it appears it may well be as there is no mention of any previous contact, how is it they can dredge up a journeyman from the arrrse end of division 2 in Green, who qualifies but only just, and we end up with him disgracing himself in our midfield while better players remain outside the fold, and all the while a man by the name of Ciaran Clarke, breaking through at one of the better sides can remain under their radar? a man who didnt think twice when asked to join us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elroy View Post
    like who for example?? Do these countries have a similar emigration pattern engraved in the past and recent history?
    Well lets see the population of our island would be roughly 6 and a half million (five and a quarter perhaps shall we say papally inclined) , making us somewhat larger than for instance Denmark (1992 Euro winners) Croatia (1998 world cup semifinalists) and significantly more than Slovenia who dont seem to find qualifying for tournaments too trying. Also similar to Serbia, Switzerland, Slovakia and Bulgaria (1994 world cup semifinalists). That wasnt so hard was it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    a chronic failing in the FAI scouting/trawling if this is true, and it appears it may well be as there is no mention of any previous contact, how is it they can dredge up a journeyman from the arrrse end of division 2 in Green, who qualifies but only just, and we end up with him disgracing himself in our midfield while better players remain outside the fold, and all the while a man by the name of Ciaran Clarke, breaking through at one of the better sides can remain under their radar? a man who didnt think twice when asked to join us.
    It's a strange one alright, considering his ties are fairly strong and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullivinho View Post
    I don't think they realised he was eligible until Richard Dunne tipped them off. Any version of this story I've heard/read credits Dunney.
    I don't know. All the stories seem to credit Dunne as being influential and from that I take it that he simply talked Clark into declaring. From what I can remember, Clark was quoted as saying that he felt his England career wasn't going anywhere and that it was difficult to turn down the opportunity to play for Ireland. While it's possible that Dunne tipped the FAI off, I suspect that Clark and the FAI were already aware of his eligibility.

    Edit: Actually, you might be right.
    Last edited by Predator; 27/10/2010 at 1:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    Well lets see the population of our island would be roughly 6 and a half million (five and a quarter perhaps shall we say papally inclined) , making us somewhat larger than for instance Denmark (1992 Euro winners) Croatia (1998 world cup semifinalists) and significantly more than Slovenia who dont seem to find qualifying for tournaments too trying. Also similar to Serbia, Switzerland, Slovakia and Bulgaria (1994 world cup semifinalists). That wasnt so hard was it?
    I think your mask (or is it a bowler hat) is slipping to one side. Can you just slide it plumb because gods knows what might happen if we gave it a nudge with the bishops crozier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    Well lets see the population of our island would be roughly 6 and a half million (five and a quarter perhaps shall we say papally inclined) , making us somewhat larger than for instance Denmark (1992 Euro winners) Croatia (1998 world cup semifinalists) and significantly more than Slovenia who dont seem to find qualifying for tournaments too trying. Also similar to Serbia, Switzerland, Slovakia and Bulgaria (1994 world cup semifinalists). That wasnt so hard was it?
    Yes it is easy to list off countries of similar size, some reasonable examples there but you need to delve a little more deeper into the facts than just that.

    The population of this country is less than 5 million. Out of the countries you list above, one of the most akin to us would be Croatia, of course they have not been known to call up players born outside their country?!?

    Slovakia, population of 5.5m. They have qualified for one World Cup out of four attempts and have yet to make a Euros. Hardly prolific either. Again Im not very aware of their squad but given Yugoslavias strong history in the game, I would imagine most of their squad if not all are in fact Slovak born.

    Switzerland, population of approx 8m. They have made the last two World Cups, but prior to that only qualified for one in 9. But lo and behold, the Swiss have been known to cap players not born in their country either, even their current squad contains a few non Swiss born players.

    Bulgaria, they havent qualified for the last three WC's and have only ever made the Euros twice. Hardly shining lights to example.

    Slovenia, I will give you that they have qualified for the last 2 world cups and I cant say I know enough about their squad to comment on its make up.

    Also another point to consider, in each of the countries listed, how many of them have football (by a sizeable margin) as their national sport??? Something, unfortunately we do not have the luxury off and thus having the effect of reducing our playing pool further.

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    Seasoned Pro cfdh_edmundo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    Well lets see the population of our island would be roughly 6 and a half million (five and a quarter perhaps shall we say papally inclined) , making us somewhat larger than for instance Denmark (1992 Euro winners) Croatia (1998 world cup semifinalists) and significantly more than Sloveniawho dont seem to find qualifying for tournaments too trying. Also similar to Serbia, Switzerland, Slovakia and Bulgaria (1994 world cup semifinalists). That wasnt so hard was it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
    I've been to Africa and they need all the charitable aid they can get from their former colonial masters, we can live without their donations though I'm sure.
    Yugoslavia players i.e Bosnian Serbs born in former Yugoslavia, Kosovan refugees etc are a seperate political issue equivalent to the 'should Shane Duffy be allowed to represent Republic of Ireland?' matter I prefer not to get involved in, there's no Clark or St Ledger types I can see in the former USSR.
    ...
    So the ex-Yugoslavia is a "seperate" issue, but you think it's valid to include them as a comparison anyway. The Croatian arguement doesnt hold water anyway, Simunic born in Canberra, Australia; Ivan Rakitic born in Switzerland, played U21s for Swiss; Corluka born in Derventa RS Bosnia; Bartulovic and Lovren both born in Zenica Bosnia; Klasnic and Ilicevic born in Germany; Eduardo born in Rio; Jelavic born in Capljina Bosnia; Mladen Petric born in Brcko Bosnia.

    Slovenia's Josip Ilicic was born in Prijedor, RS Bosnia, (Bosnia doesnt even share a border with Slovenia) same with Dedic, born in in Bihac.

    For Serbia even ignoring the likes of Subotic, Koroman, Krstajic and Milosevic (all born in Bosnia) and Ergic and Ljuboja (both born in Croatia), there is
    as I mentioned already Kuzmanovic (born in Switzerland played for their U21s).

    As for ex-USSR, well Semak (Russian captain) was born in USSR, his parents still live there and he has stated that he is Ukrainian and only Russian by late aquisition of citizenship (http://www.eurosport.ru/football/story_sto2064648.shtml). As I said Milevskiy was born in Minsk and played for Belarus's underage teams until he transferred to Boryspil aged 15. Marko Devic is a Serbian who had nothing to do with Ukraine until he left Radnicki and joined Lutsk, then he got Ukraine citizenship and now has played 6 times for them. Kislyak, the Belarussian who scored for them against France in September was born in Kamyanets, Ukraine, Rudzik was born in St. Petersburg, Russia. Pereplotkins, the Latvian on loan at Derby last year, was born in Ukraine as was Marian Pahars.
    "You have to be fair in football - you have to be honest and well done to you if you've won, but you have to win in a good way." T. Henry, Stade de France, Arsenal 1 - 2 Barcelona, 16-05-2006.

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  21. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanfhear View Post
    I think your mask (or is it a bowler hat) is slipping to one side. Can you just slide it plumb because gods knows what might happen if we gave it a nudge with the bishops crozier.
    Attacking the poster is a slightly childish if predicatable form of debate for those who dont like having their views challenged and are unable to even assess why they hold whatever viewpoint they do. You dont have to be whatever the hell it is your implying I am to care about the national composition of the national football team.

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    Adrock, your exclusive political agenda here has run its course. You have no interest in the Ireland football team apart from opinions on who is Irish enough to represent Ireland.
    Either you get involved in the football related discussions or just go elsewhere to try and infiltrate another website discussion board with your exclusive political agenda.

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  24. #220
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    Do politics and football not mix then?!
    I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
    And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
    I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
    Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away

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