Dropped, also been injured for the last six months and hasn't made a compelling case to be included over anyone else. Next.Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland
Never dropped, constantly injured and retired from international duty because of them. Next.
Who? Marc Wilson maybe? Or Darron Gibson? Or McCarthy who Trap has already indicated will likely be in the Norway squad? Next.
Agreed. Next.
Green's only just started. I remember a midfielder who started unconvincingly and became our most consistent midfielder - Glenn Whelan. Same Glenn Whelan who was immense vs Italy home and away, and France home and away and who is missed whenever he's not in the team. St Ledger has slotted in beside Dunne and being almost faultless in competitive games, an extremely impressive feat for a fairly young guy. Next.
Folan was extremely effective against Italy. But regardless, be realistic about what Folan and Best are there to do - hustle and bustle beside Keane/Doyle. They've done fairly well at it when called upon. As for Andrews, MOTM against France in Paris. Next
At this stage there is possibly only one player (Andy Reid) the above could apply to. One player - that Trappatoni has a real vindictive streak alright...
No you're not - this is pure melodrama. Slamming Trap for being lazy - a manager who has taken this so called 'average' bunch of players, as you describe them, to one competitive defeat and the brink of the World Cup - is nonsense.
We'll keep believing it since a lot of us base our opinions on, you know, actual results as opposed to WUMing Mystic Meg-asism's.
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 06/10/2010 at 6:54 PM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
QUOTE=SwanVsDalton;1408905]Dropped, also been injured for the last six months and hasn't made a compelling case to be included over anyone else. Next.
Very arrogant Next what are you a schoolteacher. He was playing out of his skin before he was injured and deserved a starting place but was dropped in such a undeserving manner. Still he'll be back when Trap finished his holiday here.
Never dropped, constantly injured and retired from international duty because of them. Next.
He was never selected again after Allardyce criticised Trap. I agree he was plaughed with injury guess who he was playing with both times. He was the best choice in midfield when fit.
Agreed. Next.
Green's only just started. I remember a midfielder who started unconvincingly and became our most consistent midfielder - Glenn Whelan. Same Glenn Whelan who was immense vs Italy home and away, and France home and away and who is missed whenever he's not in the team. St Ledger has slotted in beside Dunne and being almost faultless in competitive games, an extremely impressive feat for a fairly young guy. Next.
Green from looking at Derby is not up to the job and never will be. Whelan had to improve he couldn't have become any worse. He has the name of a really great midfielder but he is not even half the player. The midfield is constantly under pressure. Do you not see this happening during every Ireland game even against weaker teams. St Ledger is OK, but O'Shea is better there.
Folan was extremely effective against Italy. But regardless, be realistic about what Folan and Best are there to do - hustle and bustle beside Keane/Doyle. They've done fairly well at it when called upon. As for Andrews, MOTM against France in Paris. Next
Cascarino and Quinn were very effective International target men. Folan had a good moment in that game against Italy. Seen nothing much else from him. Not International standard. Best there may be hope for though I feel he should have stayed with Coventry City. Andrews MOTM thats a chuckle he was nowhere near it. He is not at it he is another Green slightly better
.At this stage there is possibly only one player (Andy Reid) the above could apply to. One player - that Trappatoni has a real vindictive streak alright...
No Stephen Reid would have got the same treatment so he quit. We'll see if McCarthy and Stokes are also on the list. He reluctantly called up Wilson as a cover for defence. Anybody with half an eye could see he's better than Whelan,Andrews and Green.
No you're not - this is pure melodrama. Slamming Trap for being lazy - a manager who has taken this so called 'average' bunch of players, as you describe them, to one competitive defeat and the brink of the World Cup - is nonsense.
So we dominate games like we did under Jack or even Mick? The midfield give away too much ball. The brink is right thats all it was. We never seem to speak about the first match which we should've won therefore not using the handball as an excuse. Why didn't we win more matches and go through the normal route. We lost the ball a bit too much at home against Italy threw it away. 4 wins and 6 draws in the last qualification group. One of those wins came courtesy of a dodgy penalty against Georgia at home.
We'll keep believing it since a lot of us base our opinions on, you know, actual results as opposed to WUMing Mystic Meg-asism's.[/QUOTE]
Thats good you do that and tell me how excited you are about the quality midfield we have. I'm looking forward to seeing us dominate Russia who are in decline.
With a squad made up of players like Green, McShocking and Kilbad we are going places. Down the gutter.........
Dominate games? Really? Consistently?
Even if that were true we had the likes of Ronnie Whelan, Liam Brady, Roy Keane... then elsewhere in the team, Aldridge, McCarthy, Moran.
Apples and bleedin oranges!
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Is 'ShamrockIreland' actually Weldoninho under a different login?
I've no idea but its best not to hazard a guess for fear of retribution from logical argument.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Anyone who thinks Andrews is rubbish should have their match tickets taken away from them.
Lads although somewhat extreme in his views, he does raise some valid points, especially around 4 wins and 6 draws, remember we were lucky to have played georgia in germany, and we won that 2 - 1 too. We also did get what some would describe a lucky penalty, or at least a 50:50 sometimes you get them sometimes you dont.....we also should have beaten france in normal time, and should definitely altered our game when we went 1 - 0 down in dublin.
At the end of the day 6 draws and 4 wins is not any great feat, it just means we are hard to beat. God knows cyprus are hard to beat too.
I think the henry incident masked the fact that a combination of individual errors, poor tactics and not being able to kill off a game cost us.
I think sometimes we can be clouded by our optimism when coming close to qualifying matches on here. I'd be interested to see the pattern over a 7 day period before, during and after the qualifier(s)...im sure one would emerge.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
If we're talking about luck in the last campaign, how about the stonewall penalty we should have had in Montenegro, or McGeady's miss? The very fortuitous own goal we conceded at home to Bulgaria? The game at home to Georgia when we were denied a clear penalty? Henry? Overall, the 'luck' we had/didn't have broke relatively even.
The two things that undermined our last campaign were the few brainfarts in defence (Kilbane against Bulgaria, O'Shea out of position against Italy) and the standard of our finishing. We had clear chances to beat Montenegro away and Bulgaria at home (McGeady's effort in Podgorica, Doyle's last-minute header in Croker), and of course, we missed a fair few chances against the French. Marginal things can make the difference between a great campaign and a forgettable one.
The naysayers and anti-Trappites would do well to remember where we were three years ago - preparing for a dead rubber home game against Germany, out of contention with three games to go. Suffering through a 1-1 home draw with Cyprus, salvaged only with a last minute Finnan goal. Andy Reid and Joey O'Brien in central midfield, as I recall. For those of you who say Trap is lazy, look at the job he was faced with when he took over. I can guarantee you that the team that lines up against Russia will be far more competitive and compelling to watch than that rabble under Staunton. Or what could have been under Paul Jewell, Terry Venables or Billy Davies.
You beat me to it Supreme Feet.
shamrock wasn't saying what you said paul. All any of us "clouded by optimism" have been saying is that the last campaign was a good foundation but needs polishing up at both ends in order to be bettered. Doing so isn't that big an ask, or shouldn't be. Your luck comments are straight out of David Kelly's columns. Biased to suit one side only. I'm surprised you didn't find a way to drop in the phrase "lily livered".
The last campaaign had good and bad fortune in equal measure.
It depends how you see things, depending on results, you don't even think about luck....more importantly you dont need to think about luck and what ifs etc. I think thats pretty clear cut to be honest(im not just on about inidividual incidents etc, but as a whole, for example if we had been all over montenegro i think the ref would have given that but we weren't, and if we were all over them i think we would have scored too if you catch my drift). Too many teams go ah we were unlucky we were this we were that, in rugby it happened for years but when you are actually doing the business or at a level capable of doing so, you seem to forget luck and the arguments that follow. So you say we are unlucky, I say we aren't good enough or clinical enough, not consistent enough too many error prones in one position, is that down to management, or just lack of cover? I'd say in our case its a bit of both.
The thing around individual errors follows on from the end of the last point, Trap insists on playing certain players that are weaker than those for the overall balance of the team, however one person can make the team extremely unbalanced, lets just take the kilbane example here, kilbane has been a great servant to ireland and we all love him, its not his fault he keeps getting picked( unless he really was a true servant he would force it by retiring from international football), kilbanes finish against bulgaria at home was top drawer, except he would never be able do it down the other end. He was clearly at fault for bulgarias goal away as well, along with a few other bloomers that we got away with. IN the last few games, everyone has targeted that side continuously, his positional sense is terrible and so must his communication skills be(everyone says he is there for experience, but he doesn't find the right positions, thats experience really even if its not your preferred position it should be natural/obvious enough), because he is always dragged too far in and balls are easily placed over in behind him or gives the winger too much space to attack with and he doesnt have the speed anymore to keep up with them. Now if we had absolutely no cover there or no one who could do a makeshift job there then I would say Trap is justified in his argument. But i honestly think we couldn't do any worse with the other options we have there. Kilbane was solely responsible for the loss of 4 points in my opinion last campaign, yet trap continues to pick him.
At the end of the day, i think its fair to say that Trap has made us hard to beat. That is as far as I would go far now. Can he bring us to the next level? I don't know, but we will find out and if he cant then we will not qualify for Euro 2012. Trap has done a decent job to date, but it doesn't mean he hasn't made mistakes or isn't still making mistakes along the way. Perhaps if some of those mistakes that he is still making weren't made we might have enjoyed a holiday in SA last summer.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
There are a few reasons Killer keeps getting picked to start, but the two main ones are experience, and height. The guy is a beast in the air, and along with the other 3, give a back 4 that are not only excellent in their own box, but a significant threat in the oppositions box. This needs to be highlighted due to the slightness of our two wingers, one of our central midfielders and Robbie of course.
I've a feeling that Trap had the training camp to get players through to the end of these competitive 2010 games, and that he'll be using the Norway friendly and the Celtic cup to develop the likes of Ward, Cunningham, Foley, McCarthy, Clark, Duffy, Emphraim, Meyler, Barry Maguire and possibly Andy Reid, as well as another look at Folan and Cillian Sheridan.
And if it does work out that way, I can understand it to an extent. When the meet ups for internationals are relatively short, it must be troublesome to try and hammer into the heads of players the system or formation that you want and expect. Whereas when you have a training camp, you're setting your stall out and you've a week or so where the important goal is to press upon the players what they've got to do, so that when the important weeks come around you can focus solely on the opponent and what to do, rather than trying to teach your system to newcomers.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
So do you think that its like a jigsaw and with one piece missing the whole thing falls apart? I don't and I don't think playing one piece, one player playing instead of another is going to have the whole thing fall apart. Obviously he has to go with a tried and tested 10 or possibly even 9, that doesn't mean he cant change one particular player if there are others in his position doing far better than he is.
The training camps are great and all that, but don't tell me one player cant be accommodated and thought in 5 days. thats 5 days. a week is a long day in a normal job to get up to speed, a week is a long time in politics. A week in professional football is certainly a long time when changes aren't that drastic.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Of course it doesn't fall or fail with one player missing. I don't think I even came close to saying that?
The 5 day thing. Sure it is a long time. But you're not going to have the whole squad for every single one of those days, thats been seen time and time again.
Say this week Trappatoni decides he was going to go ahead with Cunningham. Fair enough, that's one player who he has to try and impress his ideas upon, to make sure he's in no doubt what his job is in itself, and then what his job is in relation to the other members of the back 4, how they go about that as a group, then how he has to interact with his winger in front of him, etc etc. Grand no problem. Then Dunney has to sit out 3 of the 5days training planning and interacting. So then Josh goes in at centre half, Stephen Kelly steps in at right full, and now you've two players to make sure they know exactly what the sceal is, while trying to make sure the two new centre halves are au fait with each other.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
There's no direct quotes from Advocaat but there's a lot of newspaper talk this morning of Kilbane being "targetted". Ths could simply be a statement of the obvious passed off as fact.
Anyway, I think this speculation that Kilbane has been singled out as the man to expose should hopefully serve as Kilbane's added motivation (although never needed in Kilbane's case anyway) to perform solidly.
Quoting years at random since 1975
You didn't kingdom, but im implying by what others have said that he wont change things because he has his system and the system cant change and its impossible to even make one slight change because of the system, the little details etc etc.
Cunningham has been around for a while now in the squad, im sure he hears as much as everyone else. i doubt trap hides the first 11 away from the rest.
Bring in players to the squad at least to make up the numbers so that they are given a chance to learn the system. Even if just to make it 11 v 11 they would still be learning the system etc.
Last edited by paul_oshea; 07/10/2010 at 12:50 PM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
I don't see how anyone can think Meyler will be part of the November friendlies,
physioroom (http://www.physioroom.com/news/engli...jury_table.php ) don't have him down as being back until the 27th of November, and that's just healthy, it'll take at least 6 weeks before he can play at any level again.
I was thinking of him for the celtic cup matches in feb and may.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
unchanged team named: http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...r-men&Itemid=8
Code:Republic of Ireland: Shay Given (Manchester City) John O'Shea Sean St Ledger Richard Dunne Kevin Kilbane (Manchester United) (Preston NE) (Aston Villa) (Hull City) Liam Lawrence Glenn Whelan Paul Green Aiden McGeady (Portsmouth) (Stoke City) (Derby County) (Spartak Moscow) Robbie Keane Kevin Doyle (Tottenham) (Wolves)
You have to make a case to drop a player.
There is not a strong enough case to be made to replace KK yet, by a rookie like Cunningham. Neither is there a strong enough case to replace KK by shuffling around players from other positions. That is how it stands before these 2 games.
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