General promotion/media discussion (split from the attendances thread)

[peadar1987]

This is true for people who already care about the game. Not for others who are giving it a try.

Unless you expect people to be instantly bitten by the LOI bug, you have to accept that it will take a few games for them to get really into it, and they might not bother with those few games if the facilities are crappy.

Jackman in Limerick is a perfect example of why a curious spectator might decide not to go back.

I've heard bad things about Jackman alright, and I'm fairly sure Abu Ghraib must have better toilets than the Carlisle, but anyone who complains about the facilities in, say, Dalymount was never going to become a fan anyway.

[Dodge]

The seats in Tallaght are no comfier than the ones in Richmond

They are. Quite a bit comfier. And overall Tallaght is far more attractive to Richmond to most. Anyone who says differently is either deluding themselves or lying (and I say that as some one who loooooves Richmond)

[osarusan]

I'm an engineer, not an advertising executive.

Well this guy -

A former league marketing executive told a fans meeting about 7/8 years ago that there was no point in advertising as although it might get people in the grouinds for one game. The poor facilities would mean they won't come back

That still holds true

is a marketing executive, and I'll go with his opinion.

You seem to see no middle ground between those who will watch their team in any conditions and people who want gold-plated toilet seats and prawn sandwiches.

The fact is that at most LOI grounds, the faclilites fall short of what even a reasonable first-time visitor would expect.

[Model Club]

I'm an engineer, not an advertising executive. I would try and push the angle of community connections, because we're not going to compete with the leagues across the water in terms of quality of football or facilities. You say it's all been tried, but any league marketing I've seen has been haphazard and short-lived. We've all seen how generating a bit of excitement has worked for Shams. The seats in Tallaght are no comfier than the ones in Richmond, and the pitch isn't any nicer to look at.

But to some Peader its about more than the seats and even the football.The toilets in Tallaght are better than in this case Richmond,The food on offer would be more varied.These may sound like small things and the likes of you or me would go anywhere in an conditions but they are not called fair-weather fans for nothing!
Also my own kids when asked are they going to Rovers immediatly ask "home or away".If its the latter they walk away as they are spoiled by the facilities Tallaght has to offer.

[Acornvilla]

i love the flansiro, its better than tallagh because i say so, thats all the proof i need

[dcfcsteve]

No, the media covers what advertisers are interested in. And advertisers are only interested in certain sectors of society.

That is certainly true to a limited extent - but different products appeal to different demographics, and there's a newspaper to match each demographic as well. Unless you're suggesting there are swathes of the population that neither products nor advertising are aimed towards...?!

And advertisers aren't interested in news, as you suggest by saying the media only covers what they're interested in. They're interested in access to aggregates of their target audience. And newspapers only deliver that to their advertisers by - you've got it - covering what it is that those aggregates want to read about in the first place. For example - I used to advertise soap powder to what was considered a lower socio-demographic. That involved not just mass media, but also working with media like TV gossip magazines. Do you think I really gave a sh!t what those magazines wrote about ? All that mattered in my role was that they could deliver our target audience.

So we're back to square one, and the principle still stands. The media covers what people want to read.

[Dodge]

So we're back to square one, and the principle still stands. The media covers what people want to read.

I'll say it again, the media covers what certan sectors want to read. The highest selling newspaper in Ireland sells to less than 10% of the population. In no way can they be defined as "the people"

[dcfcsteve]

I still hold that all you need to watch a football match in comfort is a seat and a roof.

And a Sky Plus subscription, of course. This is Oireland after all.....

Decent toilets and food are a benefit. Everything else is just an excuse. The people who make the excuse that the paint is peeling, or something similar, would find a different gripe once that had been fixed.

Let's be honest - the people who would be so cynical as to constantly find excuses to knock the game are the ones who you wouldn't get into an LOI ground in the first place. There are others who would be more open-minded and view it as a curiousity or something different to do. A large part of them would then be put-off if the facilities were awful when they got there.

If your local cinema was a flea-infested sh!t-hole people wouldn't use it, bar the odd film obsessive. Which is what LOI fans are the equivalent of currently. Cinemas were this bad up until the early 1990s when the industry was in steep decline and started getting its act together.

[dcfcsteve]

I'll say it again, the media covers what certan sectors want to read. The highest selling newspaper in Ireland sells to less than 10% of the population. In no way can they be defined as "the people"

But now you're just agreeing with me and contradicting yourself....

No-one was talking about "the people" as some amorphous blob. It's just a word that can just as easily mean 'individuals'. And of course newspapers don't even try to cover the whole market. Like all products, they segment. You'll never get a newspaper that covers anywhere near 100% of the population within a market economy, as that's not what they or their advertisers want.

The only way a newspaper can segment the market is by altering what it covers and how. If it gets this right (e.g. tabloids), it will attract the demographic it seeks, and the advertising will follow. If it gets it wrong (e.g. the Irish Press. They hadn't a clue who their paper was aimed at, and advertisers left them in droves for their better targetted competitors) they'll not be around for long.

Given that the active LOI supportbase is probably less than 0.03% of the population and is easily covered via other segmentation, I'd be intrigued to see any newspaper or media outlet that thought the LOI a worthy proposition to put much effort into covering. We couldn't evenb sustain our own special interest magazine without cigarette sponsorship...

[Dodge]

I never mentioned LOI fans.

You said that newspapers only cover what people want to read. Given the pathetic readership and circulation figures all newspapers in this country have, I think I've proved your statement wrong.

You can argue in circles how it relates to whatever BS argument you're having today but in no way shape or form do newspapers cover "what people want".

[SkStu]

You can argue in circles how it relates to whatever BS argument you're having today but in no way shape or form do newspapers cover "what people want".

sorry Dodge but that is absolute rubbish. You really believe that the news we receive is dictated by advertising?

Newspapers and media in general cover what is considered in the publics interest with, perhaps, their own particular political slant or twist. What is in "the public interest" is defined differently by each media vehicle hence the variety of media outlets.

Advertisers select a media or newspaper outlet that best meets their target criteria. Not the other way round.

[Charlie Darwin]

Currently, the best coverage of the league is done by an English publication, the Mirror, and broad sheets such as the Irish Times rarely lower themselves to give us more then a mention.

The Irish Times publishes a results round-up online as soon as the Friday games finish and usually have a match report of the major game up within a couple of hours, sometimes with summaries of the action elsewhere (I'm guessing depending on whether reports are submitted by fans/the clubs). There's always a match report or two in the Saturday edition of the physical paper. Daniel McDonnell comments regularly on the league in the Indo.

No, the media covers what advertisers are interested in. And advertisers are only interested in certain sectors of society.

What? Advertising is sold 2+ days in advance of publication - you, before the news happens. Advertisers rarely even get to decide which page their ad is on, let alone what content is printed.

Key advertisers can have influence over some content in newspapers, but they put in content that will directly enhance their brand. They could not care less about whether the paper covers Sligo Rovers rather than Ipswich Town.

You said that newspapers only cover what people want to read. Given the pathetic readership and circulation figures all newspapers in this country have, I think I've proved your statement wrong.

No. Sales, circulation and readership are very different things. Ireland is experiencing a decline in all three like the rest of the world, but we're working from an unusually high base. Familarise yourself with the JNRS.

[culloty82]

Local media is more relevant. In Dublin local media gets drowned out by national media, but around the country clubs have at least one county radio station (most with a higher listenership than national stations), one county newspaper, and maybe a community station and free-sheet newspapers. I don’t know what kind of coverage clubs get, and I don’t want to suggest that clubs are ignoring local media, because I don’t know what their efforts are.


Local media is also more sensitive to local needs, readership/readership and advertisers than national media. What kind of things have clubs done to get more local media coverage? (I’ve a genuine interest in that, but in deference to this thread, perhaps it’s best to leave that for another day, unless the mods decide to split this discussion).

The Kerry media generally gives good coverage to both junior and senior soccer, giving spreads in both local papers, while Radio Kerry gives regular updates from Dynamos' U-20 and A games along with KDL final scores. It's still dwarfed of course, by local GAA commentaries, but it could only increase if there was First Division football. So I'd agree it's up to clubs on the ground to do the marketing, the national media aren't interested.

[dcfcsteve]

I never mentioned LOI fans.

I did, as I thought one of us should fulfill the moderators role and try and bring the discussion back on topic.....

You said that newspapers only cover what people want to read. Given the pathetic readership and circulation figures all newspapers in this country have, I think I've proved your statement wrong.

All you've proven is that you don't understand media sales, media outlets, market segmentation or advertising...

You can argue in circles how it relates to
whatever BS argument you're having today but in no way shape or form do newspapers cover "what people want".

If you won't listen to me then at least listen to the others who've posted on this issue. But I've said my bit on it anyway, so good luck with your expertise on this issue

[Macy]

Facilities is just another excuse. Thousands pile into music festivals or even county shows with toilet facilities that would make Flancare Park's seem like the Gresham's! Admittedly, it's a while since I darkened their doors, but our facilities would stack up against a lot of GAA grounds I've been over the years.

The real thing that has to change is the mindset of the population. They basically don't support any sport week in, week out. Croke Park for the Dublin v Cork game was mentioned earlier - for a run of the mill league game would it have been in Croke Park, or in Parnell Park? The only sport that is sustaining crowds all season, is Rugby (going through a golden period - a few years ago they'd have envied LoI attendances for inter pro's!).

[Spudulika]

Macy I'd politely disagree, slightly, on the facilities aspect. If there was a decent standard at each ground then there would be some attraction, but people will go to where others already flock - it's a pack mentality and also they'll go to enjoy the buzz. I know that the Irish are termed - event junkies, though this isn't completely fair as we're pretty involved in sports - % wise moreso than many other countries in Europe and for sure there is a great diversity of events. However facilities are an issue - this May I went to a Leinster match at the RDS, first time in years (previously I'd only seen them in Donnybrook, at home) and the set up, treatment and facilities were top class while the atmosphere was good. I also took in games in Belfield, Dundalk and Tallaght, and each of them impressed me in different ways, and I'd have to say that UCD deserve better crowds for the quality of their facilities, Tallaght is moving in the right direction, while Dundalk has cleaned up. How to bring in more fans, impossible to say and there is no quick fix.

The FAI need to take a stronger lead, though throwing money at it won't help, Fingal seem to have some things, right, while there is a buzz around Tallaght on match night. We can blame the media, sky leagues etc for the low attendances, the bottom line is that most football clubs have no roots, no attachment to the locality, this is a killer in a country where we still have yet to evolve from the parish church and pump!

[Dodge]

sorry Dodge but that is absolute rubbish. You really believe that the news we receive is dictated by advertising?

Newspapers and media in general cover what is considered in the publics interest with, perhaps, their own particular political slant or twist. What is in "the public interest" is defined differently by each media vehicle hence the variety of media outlets.

Advertisers select a media or newspaper outlet that best meets their target criteria. Not the other way round.

I absolutely 100% believe that all major newspapers in this country tailor their news to suit certain demographics. Demographics that are attractive to advertising executives.

Does anybody honestly believe that more than a tiny percentage of the country was interested in katy French ODing? Yet it was front page news on the Indo for weeks. Why?

Look at sports news in the broadsheets. You’ll often see large articles on sailing or showjumping when, again, the interest level among the public is below miniscule. Same reason.

Advertisers select a media or newspaper outlet that best meets their target criteria. Not the other way round.

And each newspaper chases this advertising money hard. By tailoring their news to what the advertisers want. Naïve in the extreme to think that there’s any truly “independent” newspapers in ireland

[Eminence Grise]

OK… so now we know.


The league’s problems with marketing and promotions come entirely from … the state of the toilets.


Maybe there’s a sponsorship opportunity there: The Armitage Shanks League of Ireland? (Slogan: The league may be in the cr*pper, but isn’t it a lovely cr*pper?)


Yes, toilets need to improve, and that’s part of the overall infrastructural improvements needed in the league, up there with covered stands, catering and hospitality facilities, etc. Achieving an acceptable standard is the first step. It’s the “getting the product right” bit of marketing.


But let’s not get bogged down with that… (ba-dum-tish!)


Peadar 1987, you’re right that advertising does work, and it does pay its way. But infrequent radio advertising is not enough. There has to be a long-term approach, with constant message reinforcement. I reckon clubs need a burst campaign (frequent prime time local radio spots, prominent local press ads, 48 sheets) in the month before the season to drive awareness, sale of season tickets and attendance at friendlies, followed by a drip campaign every week of the season plugging home matches (2-3 daily radio spots for three or four days, smaller press ads, and/or alternative media like supermarket trolleys/till receipts and the like.) Advertising isn’t my strong suit, but off the top of my head, I estimate that you’re looking at a cost of €15k for the burst, and about €35k for the drip –about 250 season tickets to break even - in addition to whatever other promotions are done by the club.


Community links are cheaper to initiate, and, like you say, the best way to compete with English teams. That requires a proper PR campaign though, which would have to be ongoing, but a lot more cost effective than advertising. I wonder how many clubs would be seen as net contributors to the local community, giving back more than they take? How many provide sponsorship for local charities or events? Offer their facilities and personnel for uses other than football related ones? I suspect, like Spudulika, that too many clubs don’t have the community roots they need, and that’s a far greater challenge than trying to achieve a comprehensive national media report on their home games.


Oh, and thanks, Culloty82, for the Tralee Dynamos reference. I'm aware that they get reasonably good coverage in the Kerry media - I was actually thinking of them while I was wrting my first post in this thread.

[dcfcsteve]

I absolutely 100% believe that all major newspapers in this country tailor their news to suit certain demographics. Demographics that are attractive to advertising executives.

But what you're not grasping is that EVERY demographic is attractive to SOME advertiser or other. Because every demographic has some product or other targetted towards it.

Detergents is a classic example - three/four different price ranges of products and marketing positions, targetted at different demographic aggregates. Even people on benefits - those with arguably the lowest incomes - still have some money to spend and are targetted by advertisers. They still need to eat, wear clothes etc etc etc.

Different newspapers likewise target different demographics. So your idea that they all slavishly target only some sections of society, because that's supposedly what advertisers value, is just plain wrong. There is a newspaper and products for every demographic - cuz that's how market segmentation works.

As for the OD of an Irish model being front page news - next you'll be suggesting that no-one had any interest in Kate Moss's well-publicised drugs issues five years ago ! That sort of sh!t sells newspapers - which is why it gets the coverage it does. It may not be our cup of tea, but it's of interest to a scarily large number of people.

Now back to the LOI's woes...

[Dodge]

You're continually missing the point steve, To the point I can now longer break it down any simpler for you.