Just how low will FF & PDs sink?

[Plastic Paddy]

Not 'plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme', non...

No, 'tis as I had it Conor... "the more things change, the more they stay the same". Unfortunately.

PP

[brendy_éire]

Ahh, Brendy, the vim and vigour of youth. Crap government is crap government, mucker, irrespective of political leaning. Uncle Joe, from whom you quote, was famous for five-year plans that led to millions of people starving. Never mind the twenty-or-so million that he and his administration murdered. And yet the Party apparatchiks and nomenklatura still enjoyed their Crimean dachas. Some communism, huh?

Yep, totally agree. Stalin was a nutcase (quite literally), should have received treatment for his paranoia. Didn't agree with his 'socialism in one country' idea either. Stalin was no Communist. I quote him only cos he did come out with some quality quotes. ("One death is a tradgey, a million a statistic" - Feckin genius hi!)

I know what you're saying, but never, ever underestimate the ability of people to crap all over each other in the pursuit of greed and personal gain. Whatever political system you subscribe to. Humanity is just not capable of ascending the heights that such advanced systems demand.

There will always be capitalists who will wish to make profit for themselves, but take away the mechanisms that currently allow them to do so, and you can solve the problem.
Humanity can, and ultimately will, ascend to the heights asked of us in Communism. We can evolve beyond our greed and selfishness. Haven't we managed, on the whole, to evolve past our desire to kill each other over petty squables? As animals, we have it in our instinct to kill anyone we don't like. But we've learned restraint and respect for rules of society. The same can be achieved with regard to greed and selfishness. Not saying it will be easy, but it will be achieved.

[patsh]

Its haldly FFs fault that there is no crediable opposition in this country.

FF should be the opposition!
A few posters have pointed out that we get the government we elect.
Well how many have voted for the PDs?
No matter what anyone says, the government is being run by the PDs, implementing PD policies and following a PD agenda.
This shower gained less than 8% of the votes of the electorate. 92 people out every 100 that voted did not vote for them.
Ireland has been taken over by extremists from a tiny minority party, and FF, being the party in the position to do something about it, are doing nothing to stop them.
I accept the majority wish of the people, but I do not have to accept the destruction of my country by a tiny number of idealogues.

[pete]

No matter what anyone says, the government is being run by the PDs, implementing PD policies and following a PD agenda.
This shower gained less than 8% of the votes of the electorate. Ireland has been taken over by extremists from a tiny minority party, and FF, being the party in the position to do something about it, are doing nothing to stop them.

You sound like FF'er on election day. Anything bad the government do will always be blamed on the PDs...

[patsh]

You sound like FF'er on election day. Anything bad the government do will always be blamed on the PDs...

yourself....
The PDs, a tiny party with a tiny vote, are setting the agenda for this government. FF are to blame for allowing this. There are two of them in it and between them they are dragging us deeper and deeper into the mire.
If you cannot see anything wrong with debasing our Constitution to get votes, then it proves my point that FF/PD politics have debased us all.

[patsh]

As for Patsh argument about how many voting for the PDs, that's the nature of the beast. Labour (my bete noire!) have been in many governments yet struggle to get somewhere around a fifth of the vote.

And do you think FF, the party with 40%ish of the vote, should allow the party with 6% dictate to them?
Just because Ahern will do anything at all to hang to his office, surely there are some in his party who feel this is wrong?

btw, 22% of the vote is a sizeable vote for any party and makes Labour a major force in this state for as long as it has existed. 6% (what the PDs actually got) is less than the ragbag of independants, who get elected on whatever issue is annoying the locals.

[brendy_éire]

Think I've made this point before.

Isn't it very conveniant for you to say that communism didn't work in practice because it's most famous (alleged) exponent was not a true Communist? I mean, a capitalist could argue that capitalism hasn't worked because there has been no true capitalist...but it's a great idea on paper.

Fair play to you for having an opinion, I'd much rather that then apathy. But I don't know if you can be so dismissive of the extremes of leaders like Stalin (and presumably Ceacescu and Tito and other tyrants) and deny that they are communist related excesses, yet point to problems in the Western World and argue that they are definitely the marks of capitalism rather than personality related.

I may be convenient, but it's also true. Stalin was not a Communist. Neither were any other leaders of so-called 'Communist' states. If these states truly were Communist, you would never have heard of Stalin, Tito, et al. In a truly Communist society there are no leaders.

Pure capitalism simply cannot be attempted, as it would never work. True capitalism would mean no taxation, thus no public services (that includes police, roads, street lighting, maintance of parks, etc). True capitalism would be unworkable, which is why capitalists don't attempt it.
I don't blame all problems of the capitalist world on capitalism, just a lot of them. Capitalism teaches us to be selfish, greedy, always asking "what's in it for me?". Capitalism allows for rulers and the ruled to emerge. This in turn creates many of the problems associated with capitalist states. Rulers will always be corrupt, which is why I think we need rid of them altogether.

[brendy_éire]

A mere coincidence that I was born in 1986? I think not.

And ye know, the economic growth of the past decade or so isn't all down to the government in charge. There are many, many factors, including the global economic climate, economics conditions in the US (where much of the investment has come from), and of course, the role of the EU and the time taken for its measures to kick in.

[patsh]

A few interesting facts some here would do well to be reminded of.

1986:

1. Unemployment 20%

2. Standard Income tax rate of 28%

3. 50,000 people emigrated to all parts of the globe in the search of a job.

4. The IMF were on the brink of forclosing on Ireland inc thanks to the Governments Tax and spend disaster policies.

5. LABOUR WERE IN GOVERNMENT ! ! !

Of course coveniently forgetting that it was the policies of Jack Lynch and Martin O'Donoghue and their famous election stunts of 1979 that had brought us to this situation.
If you are going to post something, at least get some basic facts right...

[SÓC]

Wait a sec Patsh. 8% voted for the PDs. The other 92% had the clear choice of voting to elect a FF/PD or rainbow Government. A vote for Pd/FF is a defacto vote for a PD/FF government, the PDs played their cards very well, appointing themselves the FF watchdogs.The people of Ireland elected a FF/PD government. That my friend is a simple fact.

To say that the Government only put forward PD policies is a load of nonsense. If that was the case we'd have one rate of tax, f-all social welfare and tax breaks for the super-rich. In fact the only areas where the PDs really made any noise were National Stadium and Dual Mandate.

[patsh]

Wait a sec Patsh. 8% voted for the PDs. The other 92% had the clear choice of voting to elect a FF/PD or rainbow Government. A vote for Pd/FF is a defacto vote for a PD/FF government, the PDs played their cards very well, appointing themselves the FF watchdogs.The people of Ireland elected a FF/PD government. That my friend is a simple fact.

I'm not sure how good you are on maths or statistics, but 6 - 8% is a very small minority vote.
If you truly wanted an FF/PD government, why not a 50/50 split, or 60/40 or even 70/30 ?
The simple fact, my friend, is that a tiny minority of people in this country vote for the PDs.
Yet FF have let themselves be dictated to by this little group of extremists.

To say that the Government only put forward PD policies is a load of nonsense. If that was the case we'd have one rate of tax, f-all social welfare and tax breaks for the super-rich. In fact the only areas where the PDs really made any noise were National Stadium and Dual Mandate.

The smoking ban seems to be the one piece of FF legislation, EVERYTHING else is PD inspired or leaning towards their policies.
The 16 social welfare cuts, the continued tax breaks for the wealthy etc. etc.
All FF are coming up with are stunts like "de-centralisation".

[SÓC]

Patsh firstly excuse the tone of my last post, twasnt the sober hour

The whole point of what I was saying is yes 8% is a small minority but the other 92% of people who were not going to vote PDs were left with a clear choice, FF(and thus FF/PD Government) or Rainbow Government. The Irish people decided on a PD/FF government. Things like PR and vote management came into it but then again if there was no PR we'd just have huge FF majorities all the time.

As for policies, FF IMO have played the PDs. Anything unpopular get loaded as a PD decision but FF are always seen as behind popular policies like the SSIA's, peno points, smoking ban and the likes. A fair trade off if the PDs get their way now and again.

[Plastic Paddy]

Which of my facts were incorrect then? If labour get back in it will be high tax high spend lunacy all over again. Perish the tought...

Most unlikely. Whichever party gets in will be bound by fiscal policies put in place by the European Central Bank. "Harmonisation" is already ensuring that indirect taxes, such as VAT, can only be set domestically within prescribed bands. It won't be long before this spreads to all forms of public revenue procuration.

BTW Silvio, the Conservatives in the UK are looking for good ad campaign ideas for the upcoming round of elections (see this from the Guardian last week). I think your hyperbole is just the kind of thing they're after...

PP

[liamon]

Most unlikely. Whichever party gets in will be bound by fiscal policies put in place by the European Central Bank. "Harmonisation" is already ensuring that indirect taxes, such as VAT, can only be set domestically within prescribed bands. It won't be long before this spreads to all forms of public revenue procuration.
PP

Yes, but the EU is pushing for tax harmonisation in general. Basically, that would see a rise in the taxes we pay to a level closer to the EU average. Not something I (or the PDs) fancy.
The low corpoate tax is also something I approve of, as it encourages industry to locate here. (My job wouldn't exist without this tax break). The EU isn't happy about this policy at all and would like us to increase it substantially.

[Macy]

The low corp tax rate was working fine, so why continue to lower it again like McCreevy did. It was already one of the lowest.

On personal tax, I take issue with the fact that the top rate of tax has come down so low - to benefit the most people the way to go would've been to increase the bands (taking the minimum wage out of the tax net for starters, and that you start to pay the top rate of tax at a higher salary). The average industrial wage should not be in the highest tax rate.

Income tax is the most equitable way of collecting taxes since by definition the more you earn, the more you pay. This Government has, and continues to do, go down the regressive tax route, through VAT and Service Charges, which clearly isn't equitable. Just because you have more money in your pay packet come pay day, doesn't mean you aren't paying as much as before in tax once you take into account indirect taxes and service charges.

The Governments continued failure to tackle the development issue is also effecting the money in your pocket, through either rent or mortgage payments. There is enough land zoned for housing in this country, in particular around Dublin, that developers are happy to sit on and the Government are happy to let them do so without penalty (while more and more land gets zoned for housing supposedly to increase supply).

But sure, isn't it great that we're paying less income tax, go on FF/PD!

[liamon]

Macy, I agree with nearly all of that. Corporation tax is the lowest in the EU, but it's only a matter of weeks before low cost/low tax regimes from Eastern Europe join and we need to stay competitive.
I was just pointing out that the EU is pushing for higher taxes within Ireland. I don't want to see that happen.

[patsh]

I was just pointing out that the EU is pushing for higher taxes within Ireland. I don't want to see that happen.

Why not?
Don't you want good roads, a health service, the streets swept, libraries maintained, old people looked after, community services maintained etc. etc. etc.....?????
Or is it a case of you feel it's your money, so everyone else can f off?

[patsh]

As more and more people realise that this disgusting referendum is a purely cynical attempt to get votes by raising rascist concerns, the more likely it seems that it will be overwhelmingly passed.
I hope all you FFers are proud of yourselves....

[liamon]

Why not?
Don't you want good roads, a health service, the streets swept, libraries maintained, old people looked after, community services maintained etc. etc. etc.....?????
Or is it a case of you feel it's your money, so everyone else can f off?

Yup, that's pretty much it. I work hard for my cash and it's mine. My precious.

I have no problem paying my current level of taxes. I'm just not convinced that throwing extra money into the civil service, etc. will solve anything.
At least if it's my cash I can go out and pay for the services that I use. Very capitalist way of thinking, isn't it? But that’s what the people voted for when they elected FF/PD governments. And that's how I feel. Should I go and hang my head in shame?

Basically, I wouldn't mind taxes even increasing a little. What I don't want is a European socialist system where people pay huge amounts of taxes and the government provides everything. Basically, I don't trust them. Too inefficient. Too much bureaucracy. At the same time, I don't want a US system where you lose your job and end up on the street freezing to death.
I think we have a nice enough balance at present, though maybe a slight tax increase would be justified in order to provide some extra services to the disadvantaged.

[Macy]

You have had tax increases Liamon - the tax credits and bands didn't increase with inflation. This Government is more concerned about helping it's mates in the business community, than the larger community. If you're right wing and that's the policies you support than fine - that's not the same as the avid FF's here claiming they're left of centre. Fair play for your honesty Tory Boy