Con Murphy rant on Rte.ie

[gspain]

http://www.redcafe.net/f6/article-ir...d-fans-305379/

Not good for the blood pressure. I stopped reading after

"The LOI are just whiney cnuts sometimes"

Good article from Con. Booing made me sick. I knew what I was letting myself in for going to the game but it was even worse
than expected. Only saving grace was nobody asked me who I really supported (I was wearing my Limerick jersey) unlike Battery Rover who
got asked twice.

[ndrog]

Just wasted a considerable part of my life reading that crap .What a bunch of non educated fools . I cant be bothered with the whole question any more tbh its just soul destroying hearing Irish people talk like that . Had an argument with other drogs recently about Louths relative success ( a stolen leinster title ) having a negative effect on DUFC which i found pathetic but the arguments on there are just childish .

[passinginterest]

I read the full first page of that debate on Redcafe and it's not the worst in the world, there's a few valid arguments made, and it's exactly the type of thing the League should be looking at in order to understand the mindset of the "barstool" crowd and what attracts them to games. I think the key thing that comes up over and over is forming a connection to the team in the very early years, between the age of 4 and 8 seems to be the key, this suggests to me that the League of Ireland needs to push it's presence in primary schools as much as possible in order to alert young minds to their local league and local teams, the ever increasing television coverage and programmes like MNS will also be vital. When you see the reaction to simple mascots like Freddie the Fingal Fox and Hooperman from the adoring kids it certainly opens your eyes to the value of, often simple, promotion.

[gufct]

Its the kids we have to target.Very funny at GUFC -v- Liverpool XI on tuesday that the kids in the pool jerseys began chanting for United near the end much to the disgust of the parents who had brought them.

What was shocking for me was that last nights attendance was 4,000 down on that other non event just shows the kind of country we are.

[gspain]

I read the full first page of that debate on Redcafe and it's not the worst in the world, there's a few valid arguments made, and it's exactly the type of thing the League should be looking at in order to understand the mindset of the "barstool" crowd and what attracts them to games. I think the key thing that comes up over and over is forming a connection to the team in the very early years, between the age of 4 and 8 seems to be the key, this suggests to me that the League of Ireland needs to push it's presence in primary schools as much as possible in order to alert young minds to their local league and local teams, the ever increasing television coverage and programmes like MNS will also be vital. When you see the reaction to simple mascots like Freddie the Fingal Fox and Hooperman from the adoring kids it certainly opens your eyes to the value of, often simple, promotion.

Bray do a fantastic job with the kids and Fingal seem to have a great community involvement too. There is a lot of good work going on in other clubs too.

However when I was in primary school many of the class went to see Limerick on a semi regular basis. There was outcry when one 8 yearold decided to support Cork Celtic instead because Limerick were crap (I haven't forgotten Ger you turncoat B%^&d). In secondary school the whole class went off to a cup replay v Thurles. Quite a few went regularly. Limerick were very successful at the time but none go now or if they do I don't recognize them.

I used to think it was tv coverage but we have that. quality of football - much better. comfort and quality of the stadia - better in many cases (not Limerick I know).

I think it often boils down to the fact that we are very much a nation of event junkies. Domestic football doesn't come on the radar here as a big event.

[passinginterest]

I agree with you to an extent GSpain but too often clubs will make a token gesture visit to a school maybe once a year, the kids will love it but it'll be forgotten about quickly and th eclub will go back the next year and start again. There has to be a more regular connect, even if it's sending match posters to the school each week, or possibly asking teachers to get involved in keeping a league table up to date in the classroom (it could be a math type thing, ask the kids to fill in the results and update their own table), other gestures like tickets, and coaching should also be mad eon a regular basis. I know clubs resources are stretched and many are trying to develop this type of link, but I think it needs to be pushed further and taken more seriously, by clubs and the FAI. Of course there's always a suspicion that the GAA will be fighting to keep the football clubs out of the schools (it would have never been allowed in my primary school, we were banned from playing football), but that's a debate/conspiracy theory for another day.

[atfconline]

At the end of the Villarreal game a couple of weeks ago, everyone was milling around the tunnel area trying to get autographs.

This little fella came running back up to his dad in the stand shouting "I got it, I got it. I got Aussie's autograph."

Over the moon at getting Austin Skelly's autograph. Would make you feel there is at least some hope for the future.

[Shedendinvisibl]

I read the 4 pages of that Man U forum and 80% of it is goonery. A few points of note...

1) People don't consider our football of any use as it's "Semi Pro" or "Part Time". The two biggest sports in Ireland are amateur and they can get to to 80,000 people to their games.

2) People claim they only support Man U, Liverpool et al as a family member used. Every auld fellow you talk to in Dublin supported Rover, Bohs, Shels and Drums yet their sons never did.

3) People claim clubs don't have any community or underage involvement. Shels, Pats, Rovers and Bohs all have huge underage sections while UCD offer university scholarships. I can't speak for other clubs but I'd assume most if not all of them have some underage set up.

4) People claim LOI clubs have bad infrastructure or facilities to be a factor in their not attending games. While we are not palatial by any means a walk around most city parks at the weekend sees same critics changing in car boots in heaving rain.

5) People claim poor football to be a reason not to go to games. While the quality of a Premiership game is generally way better, this is as much the vast gulf in resources and cash and player availability as anything.

6) Lastly, the greatest problem is the perception of the game here and what you get from it. €15 wouldn't even cover the breakfast on a day trip to Anfield; the cost of a one day excursion would more than cover a season ticket into a LOI club as well as a programme and a half time pint. So long as people reckon it's bad value to go to games here they won't go and IMO we are onto a long term losing battle unless people change their attitude to going to games here.

Feel free to comment....

[marinobohs]

I read the 4 pages of that Man U forum and 80% of it is goonery. A few points of note...

1) People don't consider our football of any use as it's "Semi Pro" or "Part Time". The two biggest sports in Ireland are amateur and they can get to to 80,000 people to their games.

2) People claim they only support Man U, Liverpool et al as a family member used. Every auld fellow you talk to in Dublin supported Rover, Bohs, Shels and Drums yet their sons never did.

3) People claim clubs don't have any community or underage involvement. Shels, Pats, Rovers and Bohs all have huge underage sections while UCD offer university scholarships. I can't speak for other clubs but I'd assume most if not all of them have some underage set up.

4) People claim LOI clubs have bad infrastructure or facilities to be a factor in their not attending games. While we are not palatial by any means a walk around most city parks at the weekend sees same critics changing in car boots in heaving rain.

5) People claim poor football to be a reason not to go to games. While the quality of a Premiership game is generally way better, this is as much the vast gulf in resources and cash and player availability as anything.

6) Lastly, the greatest problem is the perception of the game here and what you get from it. €15 wouldn't even cover the breakfast on a day trip to Anfield; the cost of a one day excursion would more than cover a season ticket into a LOI club as well as a programme and a half time pint. So long as people reckon it's bad value to go to games here they won't go and IMO we are onto a long term losing battle unless people change their attitude to going to games here.

Feel free to comment....

Very good analysis of the barstooler arguments but I dont think it will not change a thing. find it funny (sad not ha ha) that Irish EPL fans know they should support Irish football and maybe even feel a little bit guilty so dredge up all of these arguments to "justify" their EPL allegiance.
My father was born in Liverpool, I lived in Liverpool for a few years and, yes, I am a fan of Liverpool FC. I spent most of my life in Dublin 3 and had family connections with Bohs so also support them.
As (A) I am a Dub and Irish and (B) I live nearer to Dalymount than Anfield (by about 50 odd miles) Bohs will always have my first allegiance. Enjoy going to Anfield (and lots of other grounds dotted arolund England) but Dalymount is home.

[Model Club]

Very good analysis of the barstooler arguments but I dont think it will not change a thing. find it funny (sad not ha ha) that Irish EPL fans know they should support Irish football and maybe even feel a little bit guilty so dredge up all of these arguments to "justify" their EPL allegiance.
My father was born in Liverpool, I lived in Liverpool for a few years and, yes, I am a fan of Liverpool FC. I spent most of my life in Dublin 3 and had family connections with Bohs so also support them.
As (A) I am a Dub and Irish and (B) I live nearer to Dalymount than Anfield (by about 50 odd miles) Bohs will always have my first allegiance. Enjoy going to Anfield (and lots of other grounds dotted arolund England) but Dalymount is home.

Hello gents (and the 2 ladies).
Long time reader,first time poster.

On your point MB re. guilt above-This always strikes me as a silmilar kind of guilt to the one expressed when a native non-Irish speaker is in the company of a Gaelgoir...ie-I know I should BUT.....................

I have spent years wondering how to remedy the "barstool situation" in this country and the older I get the more I realise the futility in wasting time,effort etc.
We (loi fans) are a strange bunch in this country simply by displaying undying loyalty to something-Anything!!!The only other members of the population to do this on a regular basis is GAA league crowds and more recently Leinster/Munster.Both get swallowed up by their own bandwagon the more succesfull their respective seasons are.

80,000 crowd numbers constantly are bandied about by pro gaa folk but the truth is that ground is usually only full twice a year.And could possibly sell out twice more on the 2 sundays in september with people who "just have to be there".

Irish people esp. the Ole brigade like to trot out the notion that we are like Scotland or Holland ie. reasonably small countries with a loud coluorful,friendly away support who everybody loves,but the harsh truth is that both of these other countries have healthy(compared to us!) leagues with a decent loyal following propping them up.

We dont and probably never will until the league/clubs gets their act together.Even then it would take a huge carrot to entice people away from their plasmas.Bigger even than free entry in some cases.

Sky TV is here to stay folks and we may aswell get used to it-I mean even if the unthinkable happened and the clubs provided us with gleaming new stadia,sustainable growth,regular european adventures,a ladies toilet-Only one club can win each league a year-Second best is nothing in Ireland(the national team are of cousre exempt!)

[stamullendrog]

First off, for me personally anyway, I don't have a local team in my town. I support the amateur team that I play for and my county in Gaelic football.

Secondly, I don't support United because they are successful. Maybe that's why I started supporting them, I don't actually believe it is but it could have been, but I can't actually remember because I was only 8.

The important thing is that I have continued to support them through the bad times. I can think of plenty of cheaper things to do at the weekend other than flying to England to support our team. I have an emtional bond with Manchester United just like so many other fans regardless of where I come from. If foreign players can play with United and love the club and get paid while doing so then surely regular people like us should be able to support a club regardless of where we come from.

We live and breathe Manchester United and that will never stop regardless of how successful they are.

I understand where the writer of the article is coming from but you don't choose who you fall in love with it just happens

loved this quote.assuming this guy is under 35 the biggest bad time hes seen with man u would be finishing third in the league!!!id be like marinobohs too id go to anfield for liverpool games when i can but its those that go regular at the expense of their local side that confuses me.theres one bloke i work with has a season ticket at old trafford and goes over all the time spending a fortune.

[Guinney]

I often fruitlessly try to convince my mates to go LOI matches, but they would rather sit on their 'barstools'. In my opinion watching football from the telly isn't truly watching football. Football is a spectator sport from the sidelines, from the terraces, from the stands, from the one man and his dog, from the packed stadiums. But try convincing your average LoI-shunning barstooler of this. The simple truth is to many Irish people are event junkies and only like supporting teams when times are good. A real fan supports his team trough tick and thin. I've nothing against supporting English teams, but supporting your local team should come first.

Here are some of the reasons why some of my 'barstooler' mates don't go to matches:

Why should I support Dundalk they aren't even top of the league....Liverpool 'fan'.
The league is crap ... a person who never set foot in Oriel Parkcprobably since we played Liverpool yonks ago.
Its to dear, I can't be spending this money every week ... a regular in Anfield & Croke Park & soon to be regular in Aviva, where ticket prices are much higher than Oriel (plus travel costs).
I'd go if the league was better ... how can the league get better if attendances don't improve.
What did Dundalk ever do for me ... A Celtic 'fan', Neil Lennon regularly visits his house, cuts his grass and does general DIY jobs for him.

[Spudulika]

I read the 4 pages of that Man U forum and 80% of it is goonery. A few points of note...

1) People don't consider our football of any use as it's "Semi Pro" or "Part Time". The two biggest sports in Ireland are amateur and they can get to to 80,000 people to their games. You can't compare it, GAA clubs are insitutions that have been based in stable conditions and feed back into a collective consciousness of who we are (ie lower professional, working class, middle class Irish), and the fact that the sports were effectively outlawed and blocked for hundreds of years (esp Hurling under the Statutes of Kilkenny), the romance has been built up. Add to this that clubs are based around a church and parish, compared to rather more itinerant clubs in football, the connection is long lasting. However developing stable (on and off the field) football clubs will allow for a 10-20 year connection to grow with a local community, instead of wandering around the city and county looking for a gap in the fence to go play a game.

2) People claim they only support Man U, Liverpool et al as a family member used. Every auld fellow you talk to in Dublin supported Rover, Bohs, Shels and Drums yet their sons never did. Supported is a tough one, maybe followed - and I know more people who claim to have been at LOI games when they have no more interested in standing in a puddle than I would. Talk is cheap as they say, but you're right, some family's hand down traditions, but it's not always the case. Though in Ireland there is a disconnect related back to the halycon days of the league and 1960's/70's emigration and rural to suburban movement. A former Uni classmate of mine was born a reared GAA and hated football, he got digs on Connaught St., ventured to Dalymount one wet Friday when he'd nothing to do and now (living in Germany) he's a fanatical football fan (MSV Duisburg).

3) People claim clubs don't have any community or underage involvement. Shels, Pats, Rovers and Bohs all have huge underage sections while UCD offer university scholarships. I can't speak for other clubs but I'd assume most if not all of them have some underage set up. True, but the value of underage is only applicable when promising players are not led by their parents to the UK and out of the system. I was told by a colleague that we should institute the old Eastern European thing of not letting players leave the country until they're 29! I can only speak from a passing experience of Shels underage and it wouldn't be the most progressive, Rovers are improving and I believe Sporting Fingal are on the right track, Wexford have shown how it can be done, the old Cork City too, though there needs to be a full plan in place to make it all worthwhile.

4) People claim LOI clubs have bad infrastructure or facilities to be a factor in their not attending games. While we are not palatial by any means a walk around most city parks at the weekend sees same critics changing in car boots in heaving rain. Playing is different to watching (unless you're stuck out in the back end of Ballyfermot watching some Saturday 3 A side slogging it out in a mudbath. Facilities in Ireland don't lend themselves to progress, and certainly the atmosphere isn't helped. It's a chicken and egg, do you build and hope they come, or get the crowds and then build?

5) People claim poor football to be a reason not to go to games. While the quality of a Premiership game is generally way better, this is as much the vast gulf in resources and cash and player availability as anything. Agree, though some of the Sky league fare is awful, though it's well packaged for Dunphy and co to talk about. Quality football doesn't always mean excitement, when Ireland were battling to wins under Jack Charlton the style of football perfectly suited our psyche - get the ball forward and get stuck in. We changed the style and slipped back, or other teams began to read us - I prefer the former reason! :-)

6) Lastly, the greatest problem is the perception of the game here and what you get from it. €15 wouldn't even cover the breakfast on a day trip to Anfield; the cost of a one day excursion would more than cover a season ticket into a LOI club as well as a programme and a half time pint. So long as people reckon it's bad value to go to games here they won't go and IMO we are onto a long term losing battle unless people change their attitude to going to games here. Agreed, but as was mentioned on the redcafe thread, we're event junkies for the most part, and this is always going to cause problems. We'll never have clubs filling their grounds week in week out in Ireland because there are too many reasons for this not to happen. Club owners (not all) have an appalling lack of understanding of how to make it happen, our governing body are too corrupt of spirit and foresight, senior and junior clubs are disconnected, the GAA is huge and Rugby has copied the GAA blueprint and flourished, we're in a continent where there are too many top leagues and distractions.

Feel free to comment....

I'd love to see a LOI that can match up with the best and for our players to go abroad (ie not the UK) and experience different footballing cultures to bring them back. Until football in Ireland stops trying to ape what we see next door, we're going to remain in a state of permanent boom-bust.

[Straightstory]

We dont and probably never will until the league/clubs gets their act together.

Not quite sure what you mean by 'get their act together', but I suspect that even that won't work. An Irish club in the Champions' League Group stages is the only thing I can see which might grab the attention of the dumb barstoolers and get them interested. As to whether that could happen....

[pineapple stu]

Sure the barstoolers would support them in the group games and then never go to a league game. It'd be like the All Ireland versus the league matches.

[ped_ped]

Even if Pats / Rovers / Bohs / Fingal did qualify for the Champions League, that would merely result in Pats / Rovers / Bohs / Fingal jerseys from Finn to Mervue . . .

[Model Club]

Not quite sure what you mean by 'get their act together', but I suspect that even that won't work. An Irish club in the Champions' League Group stages is the only thing I can see which might grab the attention of the dumb barstoolers and get them interested. As to whether that could happen....

By 'get their act together' I mean the clubs finally spending what they can afford on players.Clubs should be as succesfull as their fan base allows them to be(leaving aside "benefactors").ie Bums on seats=more money for players.

Players huge wages in the last 10 years while giving us a leg up in the war against the evil barstool army,with improved european performances has been to the detrement of the LOI supporter.Absolute crap facilities in run-down grounds don't help a cause futhered by the glee within the media when a club is in financial difficulty.I feel these are the major reasons that people don't respect the league and therefore won't attend.

The powers that be need to stop playing lip service re. the SCP and work with the clubs during the season instead of trusting them to run themselves within their means-This trust (or lazyness,ie actually having to implement their rules !) hasn't worked in the past and obviously clubs havn't leaned from the mistakes in recent LOI history.