Marathon

[Mad Moose]

Thank you. The heat was difficult. Running in heat really throws you. Paris was a great choice. I'm set for a few more and liningt up Rome or Jerusaleum in March next year. I think I might do an international event a year just to keep up the running goal and motivation.

Well done on Belfast Stu. I know a few people who did it though I havent as yet followed up to check how they found it. They go back to that one every year as they love it. That said they are doing Benidorm this year also!!! I'm not really feeling it. Added to that quite a few people at the club are doing Man v Horse this year. There truly is a running event that just about captures every eventuality.

[Stuttgart88]

How long after Paris was it before you could walk up a stairs properly? I think I was about 3-4 days before I could stop having to walk up & down stairs sideways!

[thischarmingman]

Guys, have any of you done any of Budapest (I know Harpsbear's done this one), Berlin, Istanbul, Warsaw or Athens and if so, could you give me a quick run-down on how it was? I'd be a first-timer, btw.

They're are marathons around Sept/Oct/Nov this year when I'd like to try and do one. The full list I'm trying to select one from is here: http://www.marathonrunnersdiary.com/...thons-list.php

[thischarmingman]

Actually the one thing I'd do above all else is get a decent pair of runners. Like no need to get some crazy fangled pair promise all sorts of bull. Just get a pair of Asics. They're super-reliable.

Got a pair of these bad boys for £40, going to test them out tonight.

[thischarmingman]

Signed up for the Florence marathon in November.

I'm going to die aren't I?

[Stuttgart88]

You'll be grand.

What stage of fitness are you at?

Feel free to ask for any advice. There's more than one way to skin a cat but am happy to try and help.

[thischarmingman]

Cool, will probably do over the next few months. I'm running 10 miles in 1 hour and 25 mins. I'm going to go for my first 12/13 mile run in about an hours time.

Officially, I would be dead pleased if I finish in 4 hours or so, but secretly I want to do better.

[Stuttgart88]

1:25 is decent for 10 miles. You'll take chunks out of that by interval training, which is one part of what you need to be doing as part of your training anyway.

How did the long run go?

When I started training for Dublin I tested myself just to see how long I could jog for. I did 3 hours so knew I was already a long way there.

I think it makes sense to do a long run once a fortnight, once weekly if your legs are up to it. If you can do 13 miles now, by adding a mile every second week you'll be at 20 miles soon enough. As far as I know, you don't want to be doing 20 miles very often. Doing 21 or 22 a month before the race is probably a good idea, and something I regret not doing. I left it at 18 miles thinking the rwest will come on the day - it did, but it was awful.

Your key sessions should be speedwork once a week, no more than 3 or 4 miles, half a mile or a mile at a time at a good clip, but taking a short rest in between each set.

A 60-70 minute run with about 35-40 minutes at just less than your 10k pace, so a decent pace but not too testing. I try to do this at my 10k pace, but the books all say slower works better.

A long slow run at very manageable pace, just to build your endurance and get all the muscles and ligaments etc. used to the stress of slow repetitive slog.

Breaking up your sessions to improve V02 max, lactate threshold and endurance is the way to do it, but it also makes training a bit more focused and interesting. Just doing the same long run over and over would drive you mad.

[thischarmingman]

Stuttgart, thanks for taking the time to write that. It's really good advice. At the minute I'm training rather haphazardly with no real structure but I've been meaning to try to formalise it a bit more. I just seem to do a long (10M) run twice a week. I did 12.2 last night and found it really tough going, but I had done a good bit of walking the previous two days and my feet were a bit sore before I'd even started. Getting to 13.1 will be a big deal for me and hopefully with a bit of work like the training you mentioned I can reach it soon enough.

I know what you're saying about not doing too many long runs, but I think if I can do a couple of 26-28 mile runs in September (giving me weeks to recover), knowing I've already done the distance will be a tremendous boost.

I also got a couple of books from the library because I know absolutely nothing about food and nutrition. I've taken pride in studiously avoiding it throughout my life because any mention of words like calories, carbohydrates, nutrition just bore me to death! So I'm trying to learn about how everything works, and what I should be eating and lactate thresholds and that.

Thanks again.

[Aberdonian Stu]

Did Cork yesterday, very hilly course and not as scenic as you'd imagine for a hilly course. Happy to have it done.

[Stuttgart88]

tcm, I have never heard of anyone going OVER the distance in marathon training. For 10ks and a half-marathon, yes, but not for the full thing. Unless a reputable coach or book says otherwise I'd avoid that.

There are two books I used:

The Jack Daniels Running Formula - quite technical but it includes a very good table from which you can look up your "v-dot" score. So, if you run 10k in 50 mins for example, it'll give you a v-dot score that corresponds with that time. In the subsequent chapters you can then look up your recommended pace for any given session by looking up your v-dot score.

The best book for me was "Run Less Run Faster" by the FIRST Institute. It's on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Runners-World-.../dp/159486649X

It has a load of pages in annex where you can look up your target time (so for you - 4 hours, say) and it prescribes a weekly mix of sessions and tells you what pace. You need to develop a "feel" for what pace is what over the longer runs though. I can run relatively easy, and guess that it's 8:30 a mile, but it's only my guess, unless you have convenient mile markers. If you can afford it it'd be worthwhile buying a GPS stopwatch (Garmin, Timex, Suunto all do good ones) but they're pricey.

The FIRST book is also very motivational and explains all the science in simple terms. However, I didn't follow the long run schedule as prescribed so suffered a bit on race day, but only from 20 miles onwards.

This is also very good:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmil...calculator.htm

And your man Greg McMillan has loads of stuff about marathon training on the web.

I'd be genuinely interested in hearing how you progress.

I'm getting twitchy at home. I've got the Windsor Triathlon on Sunday and am "tapering". Was really hard not to drink watching Ireland last night!

[Stuttgart88]

Did Cork yesterday, very hilly course and not as scenic as you'd imagine for a hilly course. Happy to have it done.

Good man, well done.

[Aberdonian Stu]

Cheers. I wouldn't do it again but it's a course worth doing once. Put it this way, if you are doing your first one don't do it in Cork as it might put you off doing others but it's not awful if you have a few under your belt.

[thischarmingman]

Furthest run yet, 11.4 miles in 1:53. Doing my first 10K on Sunday, would like to manage 45 min but reckon I'll probably be somewhere around the 54/55 min mark. Maybe going over the distance is a bit much- I'm wrecked after tonight's run, to imagine doing the entire run again, plus a bit more is utterly unthinkable to me at the moment, let along going further! I'm going to do either a 9.5 or 11.4 tomorrow and Friday and then take it easy on Saturday. The only thing I'm worried about is eating- I'll have to eat in the early morning (which I hate doing, I just don't have the stomach for it) a couple of hours before the run which is at 9:15. Yuck!

Thanks for all the info Stuttgart. I read it, meant to get back to you and then have had a mad busy last few weeks leaving my job and that so haven't been on the forum much. I'm going to order the JD book this week as I've heard a few good things about it. I'm prob end up getting one of the other ones too- I could do with something that explains all the science stuff as I have a total black spot in my head for all that sort of stuff. I have been eating lots more fruit though! I've found Runners World forums quite good to browse through- reading it always makes me want to go for a run.

[Stuttgart88]

Furthest run yet, 11.4 miles in 1:53. Doing my first 10K on Sunday, would like to manage 45 min but reckon I'll probably be somewhere around the 54/55 min mark. Maybe going over the distance is a bit much- I'm wrecked after tonight's run, to imagine doing the entire run again, plus a bit more is utterly unthinkable to me at the moment, let along going further! I'm going to do either a 9.5 or 11.4 tomorrow and Friday and then take it easy on Saturday. The only thing I'm worried about is eating- I'll have to eat in the early morning (which I hate doing, I just don't have the stomach for it) a couple of hours before the run which is at 9:15. Yuck!

You're welcome!

Porridge with a blob of honey is a great pre-run meal. It's very easy to digest, and because it's low-GI (i.e., slow releasing carbohydrate) it will release energy slowly. I've been reading the running & tri magazines a lot recently, and apparently there's been a lot of recent research into caffeine. A coffee or two an hour or less before a race improves performance, according to the scentists. It also helps to, eh, get things moving. The worst thing before a race is feeling "fully loaded" and it's always nicer to go at home, rather than having to use the public toilets or portaloos at the race venue. It's the details that count!

Well done on the long run.

If you're doing a 10k on Sunday I think you'd be mad to do a long run on Friday. You'll have nothing left on Sunday, especially if you're going to try and inject some pace. 10k's can be tricky - 6.25 miles is a long way if you're pushing the pace. I think 45 mins is way too ambitious. Aim for 52-55 mins i.e., be happy with 55 mins, be delighted with 52.

For Friday, maybe do a 10 min jog to warm up, then a quick mile or mile-and-a-half, and jog for 5 mins to finish.

Alternatively (I tend not to do them) "recovery runs" are supposed to be a good idea. A recovery run is a jog at a ridiculously slow pace, just to avoid stiffness setting in. Even a 30-45 minute cycle, followed by a stretch* and a hot bath is a good idea.

Food / drink is also important. It's worth buying some Nesquik or similar chocolate powder, and mixing a spoonful with a large glass of semi-skimmed milk. After a long run it's exactly what your body needs. Hydration, protein (essential post-effort, because it aids muscle recovery) and a little carbohydrate (sugar) to replenish lost energy.

If you're into gadgets and all the kit, buy a pair of compression tights to wear vegging in front of TV after a long run. This also helps you recover a bit quicker.

Remember this: you don't get fit while running, you get fit by recovering in between runs. It's like weight training - you damage yourself during the work effort, but you repair yourself, and gradually get stronger, when you rest.

* I find stretching is really important, especially as I'm getting on a bit. It's brilliant to prevent injury. I went to a few yoga classes in my gym (not as embarrassing as you might expect) and learnt some great stretches.

wrt books, maybe read the Run Less, Run Faster before JD. JD is more scientific but RLRF also has the science stuff - just in more digestible form.

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A few other hints:

Think of each month as follows:

week 1 - think of this as your base effort
week 2 - do week 1 again , just a bit harder
week 3 - week 2, just a bit harder again
week 4 - a bit easier than week 1

week 1 - use week 2 in month 1 as your new base
week 2 - week 1, just a bit harder
...and so on.

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Another useful concept is "breakthrough" training.

So, you can run 11 miles now. On Sunday you'll know what your 10k race time is.

Set yourself a new target for the end of the next month, your "breakthrough" goal. By the sound of things, for you this should be to run a half-marathon in 2 hours(ish) in about 6 weeks' time, and be able to run 10k about 2 mins faster than you can now.

Every month set yourself a new goal (but new breakthrough thresholds must be manageable / realistic).

An example, for me, is a local hill that is very steep and takes me about 1:40 to run up. I used to struggle to do 3 reps (it's 3.5 miles from home, so it's a 7 mile round trip). Every month I added 1 rep and now I'm doing it 7 times - when I can be bothered!

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PS: Quite chuffed with my Windsor Triathlon 10k run split - I did 45 minutes on a tough route after swimming a mile (dida swim PB) and biking 42k (did a sh1t bike split). Next year 43 minutes run.

[Macy]

I've been reading the running & tri magazines a lot recently, and apparently there's been a lot of recent research into caffeine. A coffee or two an hour or less before a race improves performance, according to the scentists.

Caffeine used to be on the banned list for cycling as a performance enhancer, above certain limits. Not sure if it still is. How about a few pro plus rather than the coffee?

[Stuttgart88]

Coffee is nicer!

[thischarmingman]

Cheers Stuttgart that's a lot of useful info! I might start printing them all off, to compile my own personal guide to running I got Nesquick and porridge in our shop this week.

Anyway, I did the 10K in 1:02, which I was a bit disappointed with, although it was scorchingly hot despite the morning start. I managed 56 mins later on in the week, in the evening, with no pressure.

I also managed my best training week ever last week, clocking 40 miles altogether, running 6 days and culminating in a 15 mile run on Sunday evening which was tough at the time but which I recovered fairly quickly from (the furthest I'd previously run was 12miles). I managed it in 2:26 which left my first ever half marathon time around 2:20, which I'm happy enough with for now. I'm be wanting to break 2 hours at the end of September though.

I don't want to overdo it though, and I did try and make sure I had a good mix of sessions during the week (although I played football for 2 and a half hours on Sunday morning- I might have to change my long run day!) I have a loop of around 3.7 miles I do once or twice depending on the day and on one of the days I just tried to do one lap as quick as I could. I think the football is good too as it involves some steady jogging with a lot of sudden sprints and bursts of pace (I play on the wing).

Congrats on the triathlon time by the way, I'd like to get into that sort of thing eventually.

[bennocelt]

Heh TCM - have you seen the London Marathon Shop near Covent garden heading towards Drury lane - something I think you might be interested in?

[Stuttgart88]

I know it well. Limited range imho - I prefer Runners Need shops (various locations).