Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[ArdeeBhoy]

Indeed, I'm 100% Irish. Presumably you are too. Clearly no-one can be 101% thus.



My assertions were pretty much self-evident. You chose to avoid them because they contradict your version of Irishness. Which, if you'll forgive me, is exclusive and a bit simplistic.



Er, quite. I made quite clear my lack of any identity with the modern Irish Republic state. I have lived in it, and visit regularly, but could say the same of Germany.



Not quite. I recognise your identity as real (valid?) enough, but it isn't definitive because there are other Irish identities which are equally valid.



No offence taken, but this is just baloney. Your identity isn't superior to anyone else's. It's just your identity. At the crudest level, a means of distinguishing your group of people from others.



No-one's saying they are identical. What do you seem to be saying and claiming is some sort of exclusive right, like a trade mark, to be Irish. I'm rejecting this as self-eivdently wrong and so fairly absurd.



No, it would be equally correct. All you're doing is finding increasingly convoluted ways to repeat over and over that 'our side are better [ie, more Irish] than themmuns'. You aren't. We're all equally Irish.



You go ahead and distinguish if you must, it's a free country. Or rather, two free countries.



Less an argument than a crude prejudice. Ulster Unionism as a political movement has one basic objective which it has achieved pretty well since the 1920s: staying out of the Irish Free State/ Republic. Who cares what Wolfe Tone and Henry Joy did 200 years ago?



You do realise that support for republicanism in Britain overall (ie a Republic of Britain, not Sinn Fein) is currently running at about 15%? While I imagine it's rather lower than that amongst Ulster unionists, probably not at the 0.001% level you exaggerate for effect above. Put simply, unionists don't want to be forced out of their own country- that doesn't make us all slavish monarchists.



Your whole attitude to this issue- exclusive and dismissive as self-described above does you no favors. For all the effort at legal, psychological and other high-falutin' explanation your analysis is pretty simplistic. And indeed denial. Any further up the Egyptian river and you'd be looking down from the snows of Kilimanjaro.



I predict you will finish second with 22 or 23 points and enter the play-offs, as alas for you Sweden are likely to qualify automaticaly as the best runner-up.

The numerous fallacies aside, does anyone understand any of this besides Gastric's point?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ah, I see. So, on the other hand, the intent behind a "Red Hand of Ulster salute" would be wholly innocent?

What is a "Red Hand of Ulster salute" anyway? Is there such a thing? .

FYI.

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=133007

[Gather round]

I think Irish people that travel to see the Irish football team should be entitled to do what they like when they arrive. Each to their own.

Personally I have always taken every opportunity on away games to see the local sights, but thats my perogative. It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me whether other fans avail of this opportunity or not. I can not see how what other people do with their time bothers you

Excellent post, M. le Croque. I enjoyed my midweek break in Belgium. As well as the game, I saw the sights of Liege in the sunshine, as well as Waterloo near Brussels plus a brief bus ride around the Ardennes late at night (I think the driver was looking for somewhere to abandon a very lairy Ardee Bhoy).

All that plus a cafe terrace lunch with senior members of the foot.ie posse, Bellevue Framboise available. Tres bien!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Excellent post, M. le Croque. I enjoyed my midweek break in Belgium.
a brief bus ride around the Ardennes late at night (I think the driver was looking for somewhere to abandon a very lairy Ardee Bhoy).

When did this, er, notional event occur?

[DannyInvincible]

FYI.

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=133007

Is there genuinely such a gesture then or was it just some nonsense Rangers concocted to get off the hook with UEFA? Not that the intent behind any display of "loyalist power" or whatever would be in any way angelic either, I'd imagine, even if it was made outside of Ireland or Britain, but especially in an Israeli context given murky loyalist connections with Combat 18 and the like. I've never heard of it in my life and, doing a quick search on Google, it's scarcely mentioned, if at all, beyond forums discussing the aftermath of the Rangers fans' gestures in Israel.

Out if interest, is there any significance in the positioning of the Red Hand's thumb, or are variances merely stylistic? For example on the Ulster flag, the thumb is closed against the hand at a parallel, whereas on the Ulster banner, it's pointing diagonally away from the hand.

[ArdeeBhoy]

There are numerous pictures of an 'en masse' RHOUlster Salute at Celtic Park, obviously a mutually inflammatory affair.

Think any nuances in hand gestures are entirely accidental;AFAIK it was just a flat palm, raised in the manner of a, er, Nazi salute.
Which seemed to appeal to some of the participants....
The same people always going on about their loyalty to their, er, crown.

[OwenGoal]

Oh great. Another thread bites the dust. Take it elsewhere ladies.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So no thoughts on racist Russian fans then??

[gastric]

Oh great. Another thread bites the dust. Take it elsewhere ladies.

Owen, With the season over, we now enter tumbleweed season and generation of debate becomes harder. Be tolerant!

[BonnieShels]

Owen, With the season over, we now enter tumbleweed season and generation of debate becomes harder. Be tolerant!

What season would this be gastric? Spring?

[gastric]

What season would this be gastric? Spring?

Actually, you're wrong as it is Winter where I am! Can't wait to get home to the ol' sod next week and enjoy an Irish Summer!

[Newryrep]

Wouldn't make much difference if it was Berlin tbh, they'd simply park themselves and occupy the Irish Pub(s) from the minute they landed to the minute they left. We played in Stuttgart a few years ago, and there were industrial quantities consumed there too.

There isn't much to see in Skopje, point taken, but there is more to a trip than drinking time. Even for those who did the Fri-Sun trek, the game was on at 9.30 on Saturday night, which allowed plenty of sightseeing time on the day. You don't have to be a religious fundamentalist to visit Teresa's tomb, or a bus enthusiast to visit a rail museum. The clock on it is dedicated to the moment of the 1963 earthquake. If anything, in such a small city, these should hold more interest.



See where I'm coming from?

You can go to a pub anywhere, you can very rarely go to Skopje, so you should try to make the most of it. When I travel with Ireland, the game and result is the whole point of the trip, for them it seems to be a distraction more than anything else.

Fans drink all over the world, but nobody drinks as long, as fast, or as often as the Irish. Some of these trips are extremely expensive, take a long time to save for, and to go all that way to spend all the time in a pub seems like a waste to me.

Yes it does matter where it is and how long you are there for as I have already alluded to. Sight seeing on match day maybe an hour or 2 at most

I have no doubt that there are fans to whom the game is secondary and will spend the the majority of their time in the 'irish' bar nor that all the fans are some sort of cultural ambassadors traipsing around foreign museums/places of interest. There is a healthy mix but the ones who never ventured out side of an irish bar, drank with only irish fans, eating out of Mc D's would be very much in a minority. but frankly what people do on their own time and money is up to them .

[mypost]

Mypost

I think Irish people that travel to see the Irish football team should be entitled to do what they like when they arrive. Each to their own.

There is a healthy mix but the ones who never ventured out side of an irish bar, drank with only irish fans, eating out of Mc D's would be very much in a minority. but frankly what people do on their own time and money is up to them .

Of course what they do with their money is their business, all I did was say what they consider a "good trip", which I would disagree with, as I'm entitled to.

But saying that they're "very much in a minority", I would also disagree with.

[mypost]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0618/macedonia.html

[BonnieShels]

Actually, you're wrong as it is Winter where I am! Can't wait to get home to the ol' sod next week and enjoy an Irish Summer!

You're certainly getting your Irish summer.

[DannyInvincible]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0618/macedonia.html

You have to wonder what the Macedonian association was seriously expecting in the two games against us. They certainly did't shame themselves in either game.

[Sullivinho]

Now that we're done with them...I hope the new man get's off to a blinding start.

[tetsujin1979]

I'd certainly be more nervous facing a new coach than the same guy who managed the team we played against at home

[mypost]

You have to wonder what the Macedonian association was seriously expecting in the two games against us. They certainly did't shame themselves in either game.

They must have had Spudulika's expectations, which didn't quite materialise.

The new coach has an easy debut in the job. He's off to Russia.

[French Toasht]

Thats great news about the Macedonia manager. Not that I thought Jonuz did a particularly bad job, but the two defeats against Ireland have ended their campaign as a contest and I feared the remainder would peter out abysmally for them. A new manager should get a reaction out of the players and hopefully reinvigorate the squad. I have always maintained Macedonia will do us a big favour in this group and whilst expecting them to take anything from Moscow may be a long shot, I think they will come good for us on the final day at home to Slovakia.