Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[mypost]

Unfortunately it's hard not to agree with that. Of tghe YBIG I know, few, if any, went with Abbey Travel. I know I certainly don't, as you say it's so handy to book things independently. I agree with the synopsis of what they seem to constitute a good trip though. Personally speaking, as Geysir alluded to, if I'm paying a few quid to go to a country I'll rarely, if ever, visit again, then I'm going to make the most of it and take in all that I can.
Not having touched a drink in a few years helps, but is also a hinderance in some respects, in that most of my travelling companions are eager to get liquored up. I was far more comfortable drinking casually with the Macedonians after the game over the other side of the bridge than with the large Irish crowd on the strip.

Browsing through YBIG, the "good" trip they had, consisted basically of tales of who was most pd on the buses, how much Skopsko they could handle at any given time, how they cleaned out Paddy's Pub, who sung "TFOA" the loudest, and photos of alcos swinging off tables and chairs. On the continent, being intoxicated is not seen as something to be proud of, but that's what they see as a "good" trip. Even though Skopje is not a sprawling metropolis, there were few if any posts, from anyone who went to e.g. Teresa's tomb, the train museum, the Vodno Mountains, or other places of interest.

In fairness to them though, they're not the only Irish football fans to see the alco challenge away from home as a "good" trip. But that's not what I travel to away game destinations for.

[ArdeeBhoy]

You're Irish if you're from Ireland. The fact that there are (grossly simplifying here) two main distinctive social/political/religious identities within Ireland doesn't make members of either group less Irish.

Have you ever been to East Belfast or Ballymena or Portadown? Your theory wouldn't last too long there.

Though incidentally would agree with the GFA definition on which you're doubtless relying?

But it's pretty pointless using it to insist some people are 'Irish' when they're patently not, except by geographical location.

[gastric]

Have you ever been to East Belfast or Ballymena or Portadown? Your theory wouldn't last too long there.

Though incidentally would agree with the GFA definition on which you're doubtless relying?

But it's pretty pointless using it to insist some people are 'Irish' when they're patently not, except by geographical location.

In their own little world they can think what they want, but when they leave the country and open their gob everybody will say they are Irish.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, you've obviously not encountered these people....

[Fixer82]

I've noticed that when Irish people are abroad (I mean young Irish people, not fogies) they tend to gravitate towards each other no matter their background. I've friends in England from both colours of the 6 counties that hang around together. They wouldn't dream of being in each others' company in the North. Same in US, I've friends from Kildare who went over and made friends with heads from Banbridge and they, as well as Dubs and Corkonians, stuck together for the whole summer, staying away from the Brits and the Yanks.
People become more Irish when they leave the island, it seems, regardless of cultural background or beliefs when at home on the feckin' island

[DannyInvincible]

Miles off-topic, this, although in line with the immediately-preceding discussion, so feel free to skip the rest of my post if it will be of no interest to you.

I know GR has often argued on here that he's every bit as Irish as anyone else from Ireland, but I'm not particularly convinced by his assertions or that he's talking about the same "brand" of Irish as that which is channelled through the modern Irish state. Or, perhaps that isn't the definitive or "real" Irish in his consideration. I'm not, by any means, attempting to be demeaning, insulting or dismissive of the Ulster Protestant identity or saying that what I consider to be the Irish identity is superior to this other identity on our island, and I hope he doesn't take it that way, but I just feel there's a distinction in identity here that is precluded from being identified if one is to use "Irish" as an umbrella term to encompass both aforementioned entities. Maybe there are Irish identities rather than an Irish identity?...

Either way, his brand channels itself through a link with Britain or the British state. I find it difficult to see how such divergent identities could ultimately be considered as one and the same. I think it would be more correct to refer to the latter form, as conveyed by GR, as British Irish, or Northern Irish even, but I think it has to be distinguished from the concept of Irish as I see it because it patently isn't at all the same thing.

Of course, there's the argument that unionists are simply deluded Irish - or should that be the Deluded Irish? - duped by Britain's Irish divide-and-rule policy of privilege based on ethnicity and religion. When the United Irishmen, founded by Anglicans and Presbyterians of largely Anglo descent in 1791, began to endorse the blossoming notion of Catholics, Protestants and dissenters all Irishmen as one, the time had come to tame the agitated Irish and split such a dangerous alliance before it threatened Britain's position in Ireland. And so the newly-formed Orange Order stepped in, backed by the authorities, to stoke up sectarian tension and convince Protestants that their best interests were not to be served by espousing Irish republican nationhood arm in arm with their Catholic countrymen. Catholics were to be viewed as the enemy with suspicion and as hostile to the Protestant way of life that found security in the arms of the union with Britain.

Considering many of the founding figures of Irish republicanism and those originally involved in the movement were of Protestant descent, yet Protestant republicans nowadays are about one in a hundred thousand, unionists as somehow duped by Britain seems a compelling argument. Nevertheless, can one in this context still be truly Irish as I and many others see it if they're in denial or deluded about it? Maybe their brand could be construed as a latent Irish lying dormant that can only be realised once it reveals and frees itself from beneath the British bung. Or something like that.

Anyway, this is a thread about our Euro 2012 qualifying group, isn't it? How did we even get to discussing the nature of Irish identity, or should that be identities? Oh yeah, racism within Russian club football. Hmm, my mother would give me a good wooden spooning across her knee if she knew I'd upheld the discussion of Irish political and social history in a thread about our Euro 2012 qualifying group with a contribution of my own.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I know GR has often argued on here that he's every bit as Irish as anyone else from Ireland, but I'm not particularly convinced by his assertions or that he's talking about the same "brand" of Irish as that which is channelled through the modern Irish state. Or, perhaps that isn't the definitive or "real" Irish in his consideration. I'm not, by any means, attempting to be demeaning, insulting or dismissive of the Ulster Protestant identity or saying that what I consider to be the Irish identity is superior to this other identity on our island, and I hope he doesn't take it that way, but I just feel there's a distinction in identity here that is precluded from being identified if one is to use "Irish" as an umbrella term to encompass both aforementioned entities.

To be fair, is mainly playing 'Devil's Advocate'. But anyone can have an opinion.

And the subject came up, when someone suggested that R*ngers fans are more anti-Irish than Russian hooligans.
The latter are undoubtedly more 'nazi' in their outlook, just as hardline R*ngers fans/loyalists are more anti-Irish.
Hey ho.

[mypost]

Miles off-topic, this, although in line with the immediately-preceding discussion

How did we even get to discussing the nature of Irish identity, or should that be identities?

Sort of reminds me of all the boring debates from Greeks and Macedonians over what to call themselves. When that happens, you know it's time to debate something else.

[Newryrep]

Browsing through YBIG, the "good" trip they had, consisted basically of tales of who was most pd on the buses, how much Skopsko they could handle at any given time, how they cleaned out Paddy's Pub, who sung "TFOA" the loudest, and photos of alcos swinging off tables and chairs. On the continent, being intoxicated is not seen as something to be proud of, but that's what they see as a "good" trip. Even though Skopje is not a sprawling metropolis, there were few if any posts, from anyone who went to e.g. Teresa's tomb, the train museum, the Vodno Mountains, or other places of interest.

In fairness to them though, they're not the only Irish football fans to see the alco challenge away from home as a "good" trip. But that's not what I travel to away game destinations for.

sweeping generalisation TBH, and more likely depends on how long you are there for. People getting in late on friday and leaving Sunday have precious little time for site seeing. They are there primarily for the game or may have done their sight seeing on the way to Skopje as it wasnt particualiy handy to get to (minimum 2 flights - most likely 3). Very few know went with Abbey and if they did it was usually because of leave commitments

The general consensus from people from Skopje is that there is not a lot to see. I would be staggered if anybody who travelled didnt at least take a walk through the new/old town. Personally have no interst in Mother Teresa, nor trains, went to Martka Gorge for the day and done the cable car to the top of Vodno as well as the old town. Happy enough with that.

From the way you are intimating you would think it was Berlin you were talking about

[BonnieShels]

sweeping generalisation TBH, and more likely depends on how long you are there for. People getting in late on friday and leaving Sunday have precious little time for site seeing. They are there primarily for the game or may have done their sight seeing on the way to Skopje as it wasnt particualiy handy to get to (minimum 2 flights - most likely 3). Very few know went with Abbey and if they did it was usually because of leave commitments

You've done it now Newryrep...

[Crosby87]

Why wouldn't fans of a country visiting for a game hang out and drink with each other if they drink? Thats the way it is for all sports, no? You should see Steelers fans when they see each other in a bar who don't know each other.. By the end of the game they are in each others wedding parties. It is annoying.

I wonder what the scene in Moscow is going to be like. That city seems like it is gradually reverting to it's former form as not so safe to spend much time in. If I was going to go to a road game (Uhh..sorry Away match) That would not be the one I would pick. Yet I went there twice in 2004-05 and enjoyed all the history it has to offer immensely. I don't find that the underlying sadness of the People is necessarily a bad thing.
Drunk Russians and drunk young passed out YBIG people... Me thinks there will possibly be kidneys missing.
When was the last time Ireland went to Russia? Is it recent? I cant remember.

[DannyInvincible]

When was the last time Ireland went to Russia? Is it recent? I cant remember.

It was in September of 2002, unless I missed something since. We lost 4-2. It was during our failed qualification for Euro 2004. Report of the game here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...nd/2243176.stm

[Stuttgart88]

The latter are undoubtedly more 'nazi' in their outlook, just as hardline R*ngers fans/loyalists are more anti-Irish.

Did Rangers fans not give Nazi salutes in Tel Aviv, claiming it was an "Ulster salute" not anything political? I thought rangers' hard core have moved toward thE English Defence League in their alignment, because their old "constituency" has moved topwards Scottish nationalism, which isn't British enough and isn't consistent with their, em, relationship with the Irish.

[DannyInvincible]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...el-437299.html

Rangers have avoided punishment after satisfying Europe's governing body Uefa with their explanation for the one-arm salutes made by supporters in Israel last week.

The club announced that they were to be the subject of a Uefa investigation after a group of supporters made the gestures during the first leg of the Uefa Cup last-32 match against Hapoel Tel Aviv.

Photographs of a group of supporters making the salute were the subject of a complaint to Uefa by an anti-racism body. Although linked to the Red Hand of Ulster, the gestures were apparently misinterpreted as Nazi salutes.

Ah, I see. So, on the other hand, the intent behind a "Red Hand of Ulster salute" would be wholly innocent?

What is a "Red Hand of Ulster salute" anyway? Is there such a thing? As if a stadium full of Israeli Jews is where making such an obviously-insulting gesture for any purpose other than to offend the hosts with Nazi jibes would be the motive... I'm stunned UEFA were satisfied with Rangers' explanation.

Edit: Or perhaps it was in solidarity with Israelis in light of the weird and incongruous appearance of Israeli flags throughout loyalist communities in the north as a petty reaction to the prevalence of Palestinian solidarity within the republican community.



I suspect not, however.

[mypost]

sweeping generalisation TBH, and more likely depends on how long you are there for. People getting in late on friday and leaving Sunday have precious little time for site seeing. They are there primarily for the game or may have done their sight seeing on the way to Skopje as it wasnt particualiy handy to get to (minimum 2 flights - most likely 3). Very few know went with Abbey and if they did it was usually because of leave commitments

The general consensus from people from Skopje is that there is not a lot to see. I would be staggered if anybody who travelled didnt at least take a walk through the new/old town.

From the way you are intimating you would think it was Berlin you were talking about

Wouldn't make much difference if it was Berlin tbh, they'd simply park themselves and occupy the Irish Pub(s) from the minute they landed to the minute they left. We played in Stuttgart a few years ago, and there were industrial quantities consumed there too.

There isn't much to see in Skopje, point taken, but there is more to a trip than drinking time. Even for those who did the Fri-Sun trek, the game was on at 9.30 on Saturday night, which allowed plenty of sightseeing time on the day. You don't have to be a religious fundamentalist to visit Teresa's tomb, or a bus enthusiast to visit a rail museum. The clock on it is dedicated to the moment of the 1963 earthquake. If anything, in such a small city, these should hold more interest.

Why wouldn't fans of a country visiting for a game hang out and drink with each other if they drink? Thats the way it is for all sports, no? You should see Steelers fans when they see each other in a bar who don't know each other.. By the end of the game they are in each others wedding parties. It is annoying.

See where I'm coming from?

You can go to a pub anywhere, you can very rarely go to Skopje, so you should try to make the most of it. When I travel with Ireland, the game and result is the whole point of the trip, for them it seems to be a distraction more than anything else.

Fans drink all over the world, but nobody drinks as long, as fast, or as often as the Irish. Some of these trips are extremely expensive, take a long time to save for, and to go all that way to spend all the time in a pub seems like a waste to me.

[Gather round]

I know GR has often argued on here that he's every bit as Irish as anyone else from Ireland

Indeed, I'm 100% Irish. Presumably you are too. Clearly no-one can be 101% thus.

but I'm not particularly convinced by his assertions

My assertions were pretty much self-evident. You chose to avoid them because they contradict your version of Irishness. Which, if you'll forgive me, is exclusive and a bit simplistic.

that he's talking about the same "brand" of Irish as that which is channelled through the modern Irish state

Er, quite. I made quite clear my lack of any identity with the modern Irish Republic state. I have lived in it, and visit regularly, but could say the same of Germany.

haps that isn't the definitive or "real" Irish in his consideration

Not quite. I recognise your identity as real (valid?) enough, but it isn't definitive because there are other Irish identities which are equally valid.

what I consider to be the Irish identity is superior to this other identity on our island

No offence taken, but this is just baloney. Your identity isn't superior to anyone else's. It's just your identity. At the crudest level, a means of distinguishing your group of people from others.

I find it difficult to see how such divergent identities could ultimately be considered as one and the same

No-one's saying they are identical. What do you seem to be saying and claiming is some sort of exclusive right, like a trade mark, to be Irish. I'm rejecting this as self-eivdently wrong and so fairly absurd.

I think it would be more correct to refer to the latter form, as conveyed by GR, as British Irish, or Northern Irish even

No, it would be equally correct. All you're doing is finding increasingly convoluted ways to repeat over and over that 'our side are better [ie, more Irish] than themmuns'. You aren't. We're all equally Irish.

I think it has to be distinguished from the concept of Irish as I see it because it patently isn't at all the same thing

You go ahead and distinguish if you must, it's a free country. Or rather, two free countries.

Of course, there's the argument that unionists are simply deluded Irish

Less an argument than a crude prejudice. Ulster Unionism as a political movement has one basic objective which it has achieved pretty well since the 1920s: staying out of the Irish Free State/ Republic. Who cares what Wolfe Tone and Henry Joy did 200 years ago?

Protestant republicans nowadays are about one in a hundred thousand

You do realise that support for republicanism in Britain overall (ie a Republic of Britain, not Sinn Fein) is currently running at about 15%? While I imagine it's rather lower than that amongst Ulster unionists, probably not at the 0.001% level you exaggerate for effect above. Put simply, unionists don't want to be forced out of their own country- that doesn't make us all slavish monarchists.

can one in this context still be truly Irish as I and many others see it if they're in denial or deluded about it? Maybe their brand could be construed as a latent Irish lying dormant that can only be realised once it reveals and frees itself from beneath the British bung

Your whole attitude to this issue- exclusive and dismissive as self-described above does you no favors. For all the effort at legal, psychological and other high-falutin' explanation your analysis is pretty simplistic. And indeed denial. Any further up the Egyptian river and you'd be looking down from the snows of Kilimanjaro.

Anyway, this is a thread about our Euro 2012 qualifying group

I predict you will finish second with 22 or 23 points and enter the play-offs, as alas for you Sweden are likely to qualify automaticaly as the best runner-up.

[gastric]

Indeed, I'm 100% Irish. Presumably you are too. Clearly no-one can be 101% thus.



My assertions were pretty much self-evident. You chose to avoid them because they contradict your version of Irishness. Which, if you'll forgive me, is exclusive and a bit simplistic.



Er, quite. I made quite clear my lack of any identity with the modern Irish Republic state. I have lived in it, and visit regularly, but could say the same of Germany.



Not quite. I recognise your identity as real (valid?) enough, but it isn't definitive because there are other Irish identities which are equally valid.



No offence taken, but this is just baloney. Your identity isn't superior to anyone else's. It's just your identity. At the crudest level, a means of distinguishing your group of people from others.



No-one's saying they are identical. What do you seem to be saying and claiming is some sort of exclusive right, like a trade mark, to be Irish. I'm rejecting this as self-eivdently wrong and so fairly absurd.



No, it would be equally correct. All you're doing is finding increasingly convoluted ways to repeat over and over that 'our side are better [ie, more Irish] than themmuns'. You aren't. We're all equally Irish.



You go ahead and distinguish if you must, it's a free country. Or rather, two free countries.



Less an argument than a crude prejudice. Ulster Unionism as a political movement has one basic objective which it has achieved pretty well since the 1920s: staying out of the Irish Free State/ Republic. Who cares what Wolfe Tone and Henry Joy did 200 years ago?



You do realise that support for republicanism in Britain overall (ie a Republic of Britain, not Sinn Fein) is currently running at about 15%? While I imagine it's rather lower than that amongst Ulster unionists, probably not at the 0.001% level you exaggerate for effect above. Put simply, unionists don't want to be forced out of their own country- that doesn't make us all slavish monarchists.



Your whole attitude to this issue- exclusive and dismissive as self-described above does you no favors. For all the effort at legal, psychological and other high-falutin' explanation your analysis is pretty simplistic. And indeed denial. Any further up the Egyptian river and you'd be looking down from the snows of Kilimanjaro.



I predict you will finish second with 22 or 23 points and enter the play-offs, as alas for you Sweden are likely to qualify automaticaly as the best runner-up.

So you're British then!

[gastric]

This summary of the season from an Irish point of view is worth reading.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...t-2672139.html

[French Toasht]

Mypost

I think Irish people that travel to see the Irish football team should be entitled to do what they like when they arrive. Each to their own.

Personally I have always taken every opportunity on away games to see the local sights, but thats my perogative. It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me whether other fans avail of this opportunity or not. I can not see how what other people do with their time bothers you.

For those that are into their sightseeing and are going to Russia, I would say do a bit of reading up on some of the more notorious characters in their history, Stalin, Lenin, Rasputin etc. Makes a big difference when you are out there, particularly because the tour guides are about as impartial as their North Korean counterparts. Also look out for the guy outside the stadium that sells the babushka dolls of Irish players. A babushka doll with Paul McGrath, Niall Quinn, Roy Keane, Damian Duff and Robbie Keane has pride of place on my mantlepiece!

[DannyInvincible]

GR; so as not to take the thread off-topic any further, I've responded to your post in a new thread in Current Affairs.