Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[Fixer82]

But to come to my point. An economist, I can't remember who, claimed that the confidence gained from this experience helped pull the economy out of recession in the 80s. Perhaps if this present team can again captivate the nation, it can next year give the country the confidence it so badly needs presently.

It was Mick Byrne. Notoriously over-affectionate Irish team physio during the glory years

[mypost]

With the benefit of hindsight would people have preferred the fixtures that we are left with as a result of UEFAs random draw or the fixtures that were 90% decided among the 6 associations themselves.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...e-2101188.html

Must say I would have preferred what the associations had (almost) come up with themselves.

Firstly they were more fan friendly with two away double headers (Russia & Armenia) and (Macedonia & Slovakia).

We would have avoided the prospect of the Macedonia in the June heat (granted we past that test)

I would have preferred the current arrangement. Russia/Armenia are not fan friendly destinations, they are hostile environments for players anytime, and having the first 3 games at home would have been ludicrous. About Macedonia, we showed once again, that heat is not a problem for Irish players. We're just better than Scotland.

I think if we don't end up getting a top two position, I will look back at the away game against Slovakia as a massive two points dropped. That was a game that was there for the taking and I think in the last half hour both sides seemed to accept a draw. Its conservatism like that, that is the difference between winning a group or getting a playoff, and in a group as finely balanced as this it could be the difference in coming 2nd or 3rd.

If Russia and Slovakia fail, they'll point to the dropped points in Armenia as a reason. I still believe that the point we got in Slovakia was a good result, and it could be priceless come October. Russia still have to go there and get the same result or better it. Not an easy prospect.

I think that's Armenia out of it now, given they've still to travel to Lansdowne and Bratislava.

Armenia were out of it before a ball was kicked. They've only 1 home game left, which is where they've got most of the points. You need to be good at home and away to qualify.

It would appear that ranking of teams on equal points is based primarily on head-to-head results. Slovakia were top of the group with ten points this afternoon with ourselves and Russia in third and second respectively despite both having a superior goal difference; +3 each compared to Slovakia's +1.

I see, thanks, about time the UEFA site read their own rules then!!

It is a hellishly complicated method even if it is fairer.

Comparing one-leg head-to-head results, is like determining winners from first leg European games. There's still return games to play, and only after them, are the qualifiers determined, not before.

With that in mind, imo we are top now on goals scored, until a) we've played Russia and Slovakia again, and b) if we need to separate the teams on level points after that. Atm, we have a better gd than Slovakia, and more goals scored than Russia, so we are top imo.

Mother of god. Listening to Sadlier and McDonnell on NewsTalk.
McDonnell complains that Trap doesn't go to enough games in England.

Before then, it was the complaining that Trap didn't go to games in England. But we're doing better under Trap than previous coaches who did go to games, so what's the problem?

In our six qualifiers so far, we've only conceded one goal in the second half of matches. That's some top-quality catenaccio.

Which was an own goal.

Out of curiousity, was there ever buses organised to bring people from around the country to matches? If there was a bus to the stadium for 20 quid up and down i'd be there most games.

There's a train station less than a minute walk from the stadium. IE run long-haul trains after most game nights at Lansdowne. If they use the PP tunnel, there's nothing to stop them running a direct service from Cork to Lansdowne.

If of course....

Stutts, Another excellent post. Personally, a performance where I really felt completely and utterly involved emotionally was the infamous night in Paris. Our performance was brave, we played attractive football and no neutral spectator could not but support this small country in its efforts to qualify for the biggest sporting event in the world.

But to come to my point. An economist, I can't remember who, claimed that the confidence gained from this experience helped pull the economy out of recession in the 80s. Perhaps if this present team can again captivate the nation, it can next year give the country the confidence it so badly needs presently.

It didn't and it won't. It will however give the nation a boost in morale and something to look forward to next summer, walkouts and "Trap Out" press-hounders permitting.

They've wanted him out, as none of them wanted him here in the first place. Trap doesn't do charisma, he does results. The draw in Paris was the first time, that they appreciated how lucky we are to have one of the world's top football coaches. Then we hit the bar at home to Russia, had a difficult hour after it, and since then, it's been considered trendy again for the public and the press to turn their backs on the team.

[gastric]

While I acknowledge your point about the economy in the 80s, there is certainly a correlation between the upturn in the economy and the rise in Ireland's soccer fortunes. However, can you explain who you are referring to when you mention ' they'? I hope we are not getting into a 'us' and 'them' mentality as in either you are supportive of Trap or you aren't. Such bu#lsh#t is cheap and divisive.

[French Toasht]

I would have preferred the current arrangement. Russia/Armenia are not fan friendly destinations, they are hostile environments for players anytime, and having the first 3 games at home would have been ludicrous. About Macedonia, we showed once again, that heat is not a problem for Irish players. We're just better than Scotland.

I think you completely missed the point. I'm not suggesting Russia and Armenia are fan friendly destinations, but the group is what it is and they are locations we have to go to. For those of us that follow the Irish team abroad, it would have made a lot more economic sense for us to have those two away double headers (Russia & Armenia) and (Slovakia and Macedonia). This is posssibly the most expensive group we have ever had for fans to follow the Irish team in away matches and had the initial fixtures been set in stone, it would have alleviated the financial burden on the fans. Remember how the FAI were keen to get the away double header with Czech and Slovakia in the Euro 2008 campaign? The thinking was the same here.

As regards the first 3 fixtures at home, the thinking for the FAI there, was to showcase a brand spanking new Aviva early on in the group and also a good start to the campaign would hopefully set the tone for the rest of the group.

[Stuttgart88]

So what though? Joint top with one home and one away game against our rivals. Andorra away and Armenia at home. It's worked out well enough. We should have won in Slovakia, but were sloppy where it mattered.

[Kingdom]

I think you completely missed the point. I'm not suggesting Russia and Armenia are fan friendly destinations, but the group is what it is and they are locations we have to go to. For those of use that follow the Irish team abroad, it would have made a lot more economic sense for us to have those two away double headers (Russia & Armenia) and (Slovakia and Macedonia). This is posssibly the most expensive group we have ever had for fans to follow the Irish team in away matches and had the initial fixtures been set in stone, it would have alleviated the financial burden on the fans. Remember how the FAI were keen to get the away double header with Czech and Slovakia in the Euro 2008 campaign? The thinking was the same here.

As regards the first 3 fixtures at home, the thinking for the FAI there, was to showcase a brand spanking new Aviva early on in the group and also a good start to the campaign would hopefully set the tone for the rest of the group.

The amount of fans that would have done a double header to Armenia and Russis are the same amount that will go to both countries seperately. The real hardcore. Undoubtedly this has been an expensive group for the fans, but the trips can be done cheap. I've seen people complain about how expensive it was, while travelling and staying for a week, getting lamped for the week. That doesn't tally. I looked at Russia flights last night, and if you're prepared to slum it, you can fly in an out in 24 hours for 250. Thats excellent value.
When it comes down to it, everyone should/would take bettering the teams chances of maximising points, than easing things for fans, particularily when the majority will have no real interest in going to these far flung places anyway. As it turns out I think the fixtures debacle have done us a favour. We're looking at the prospect of the team going to Moscow with 6 wins on the bounce, full of confidence, if everything goes to plan. The original way, they could be facing a poxy trip to Yerevan on the back of a visit to Moscow.

My post made quite a good post in fairness to him. The logic behind IE's failure to utilise the PP tunnel for soccer internationals doesn't add up. I'd suspect the chance to get some money onto the Dart and Veolia services probably are as big a deterrent as anything. It would be far handier if a few trains were stored at the spare sidings in Grand Canal Dock and ferried down as necessary.

I'd agree more with Stutts than Mypost on the Russia Slovakia situation. We have overestimated how good Slovakia are. They were average (at best) when we drew them under Stan, and they have developed little since. We should have beaten them 3-1 in Zilina. The penalty and Robbie's poor finish cost us in that game, and while in one sense it helped eck out 3 points last Sat (as there was no room for manoeuvre) the three points back in Sept would make the world of difference ahead of the upcoming Autumn games. For what it's worth for all Russia's faults I think they could run amok in Bratislava, just like they did in Petersburg only for luck to desert them and side with Slovakia.
My Post is probably right about Armenia- they would have needed to continue an incredible upward curve to persist in featuring as a proposition in the group. It was more hope on my part that they would still have something to play for when they travel to Bratislava.

[Kingdom]

Just for kicks I looked at the travelling options for the play-offs. The only tricky ones are Minsk and Sarajevo and both can be mastered relatively handily. Oslo would be a real kick in the fanny though.

[Kingdom]

[QUOTE=mypost;1495910]

I would have preferred the current arrangement. Russia/Armenia are not fan friendly destinations, they are hostile environments for players anytime, and having the first 3 games at home would have been ludicrous. About Macedonia, we showed once again, that heat is not a problem for Irish players. We're just better than Scotland.

Spot on, except the fans that went had nothing but good things to say about Yerevan - most have said it's been the trip of the tenure of trap.

If Russia and Slovakia fail, they'll point to the dropped points in Armenia as a reason. I still believe that the point we got in Slovakia was a good result, and it could be priceless come October. Russia still have to go there and get the same result or better it. Not an easy prospect.

I agree and disagree at the same time. I don't believe that we were the weaker team in Zilina, I believe we were the team with the better chances, and while we'd less possession, Slovakia weren't able to do much with it. We missed two sitters, and those extra two points are the difference between possibly having to go to Moscow and win, and going there closing shop. That said, one point in zilina was better than none, and yes it could be the difference at the end of the group. For what it's worth, I think Russia could win pulling up in Brat, but we'll see.

Armenia were out of it before a ball was kicked. They've only 1 home game left, which is where they've got most of the points. You need to be good at home and away to qualify.

Too true.

Comparing one-leg head-to-head results, is like determining winners from first leg European games. There's still return games to play, and only after them, are the qualifiers determined, not before.

With that in mind, imo we are top now on goals scored, until a) we've played Russia and Slovakia again, and b) if we need to separate the teams on level points after that. Atm, we have a better gd than Slovakia, and more goals scored than Russia, so we are top imo.

Exactly, have to have a positive mindset, well until the end of the Slovakia game anyway. Things might have changed by then.

Before then, it was the complaining that Trap didn't go to games in England. But we're doing better under Trap than previous coaches who did go to games, so what's the problem?



Which was an own goal.



There's a train station less than a minute walk from the stadium. IE run long-haul trains after most game nights at Lansdowne. If they use the PP tunnel, there's nothing to stop them running a direct service from Cork to Lansdowne.

If of course....

It didn't and it won't. It will however give the nation a boost in morale and something to look forward to next summer, walkouts and "Trap Out" press-hounders permitting.

They've wanted him out, as none of them wanted him here in the first place. Trap doesn't do charisma, he does results. The draw in Paris was the first time, that they appreciated how lucky we are to have one of the world's top football coaches. Then we hit the bar at home to Russia, had a difficult hour after it, and since then, it's been considered trendy again for the public and the press to turn their backs on the team

Don't agree with all of it, but good post MP - looks really well thought out.

[DannyInvincible]

The Russian season begins in March and eventually ends the following Spring with a Winter break in between, so most of the Russian players will have six months of their season under their belts when it comes to playing us in Moscow in September. Most of our players, excluding McGeady, assuming he'll stay at Spartak, will have just under a month of their season under way. We'll have already played Croatia in August and Slovakia a few days earlier, of course, which should do us good for cohesion and whatnot, but might this have a bearing on the game? What about fitness or tiredness levels? To be honest, I reckon we should be OK. It looks like many of our players will be on the move, so hopefully we'll have a majority of the squad playing in the first-team at their respective clubs come August.

[mypost]

The amount of fans that would have done a double header to Armenia and Russis are the same amount that will go to both countries seperately. The real hardcore. Undoubtedly this has been an expensive group for the fans, but the trips can be done cheap. I've seen people complain about how expensive it was, while travelling and staying for a week, getting lamped for the week. That doesn't tally. I looked at Russia flights last night, and if you're prepared to slum it, you can fly in an out in 24 hours for 250. Thats excellent value.

The flights are not a great problem for Moscow, more the visas, the expense, and the local environment, even though it's a fantastic city. It will put many off. Personally speaking, Russia is the only trip I can't organise without tour agency help. Daytrips are not an option, either practically or physically.

I'd agree more with Stutts than Mypost on the Russia Slovakia situation. We have overestimated how good Slovakia are. They were average (at best) when we drew them under Stan, and they have developed little since. We should have beaten them 3-1 in Zilina. The penalty and Robbie's poor finish cost us in that game, and while in one sense it helped eck out 3 points last Sat (as there was no room for manoeuvre) the three points back in Sept would make the world of difference ahead of the upcoming Autumn games. For what it's worth for all Russia's faults I think they could run amok in Bratislava, just like they did in Petersburg only for luck to desert them and side with Slovakia.

I don't want to go into the Slovakia game minutiae again, but I was pleased with the point out there. I came for a point, and got it. It was critical that we kept pace with the Slovaks going into their games with Andorra. We would have been 3 points behind them now, had we lost it. Don't forget they had just won in Russia, and recently Italy. As Liam Brady said after the game, "we seem to forget all these things".

Spot on, except the fans that went had nothing but good things to say about Yerevan - most have said it's been the trip of the tenure of trap.

Look, anywhere where they're served drink on tap is a "good" trip to them. Few imo are interested in sightseeing, or experiencing the local culture. They pay 800 quid to Abbey per trip for 3 days in an Irish Pub. They could do it at home as well for a fraction of the cost. There's not that much to do, but all they need is a pub, so as long as they have that, they're happy.

[geysir]

I'm sure Kingdom, like yourself Mypost, is a sober cultured chap.

[paul_oshea]

it was not warm at all out in Macedonia bar a couple of hours Saturday morning....nonsense Scotland are just not as good or we are better-even if we did beat them recently.it was 9.30pm local time and it had not been warm that day at all.

Slovakia is far more hostile than Armenia

[paul_oshea]

i have to say there is a lot of ppl on here who don't have a clue What away trips are like bar the big day away games

[French Toasht]

Slovakia is far more hostile than Armenia

Couldn't agree more. After the Euro 2008 campaign, I vowed never to return to Slovakia, as I have never been in a city as unwelcoming as Bratislava. Gangs of skinhead thugs, just roamed the streets looking to cause trouble. So when we drew them again, I maintained I wouldn't return but persuaded by my friends I reneged. This time I had my bag stolen and luckily enough Davy Keogh leant me a jersey and Valdimer Weiss Snr paid for our dinner. (We blagged our way into the same hotel in Zilina as the Slovakian team were staying in. Literally couldn't find anywhere else open for food after the match!) But in terms of hostile places to travel to, Slovakia is up there with the best of them.

[paul_oshea]

ya its almost like a balancing act with the czechs,whatever you do we can do equally worsel

[ArdeeBhoy]

Based on the hardened travellers I know, Russia is the worst of them all?

Many of them aren't going and definitely a place I would advise no colours on display, besides the obvious indicators that will point out any Irish fans that do travel.

[DannyInvincible]

Gangs of skinhead thugs, just roamed the streets looking to cause trouble.

You sure that wasn't just half the team?

[Kingdom]

it was not warm at all out in Macedonia bar a couple of hours Saturday morning....nonsense Scotland are just not as good or we are better-even if we did beat them recently.it was 9.30pm local time and it had not been warm that day at all.

Slovakia is far more hostile than Armenia

Ah Paul, c'mon it was warm in Skopje on the Saturday. Sure it was nowhere near the 40° predicted a few weeks back, but it was still as warm a day as we would get more often than not in summer. To Celtic people, that's warm. Did you look at the players when the ball went out of play? They were guzzling down the fluids - sure the FAI physio/kitman brought two bags of fluid to the far side of the pitch before the match.

Slovakia is definitely a tougher place to go than Yerevan.

[Kingdom]

i have to say there is a lot of ppl on here who don't have a clue What away trips are like bar the big day away games

Can you expand on that?

[Kingdom]

I don't want to go into the Slovakia game minutiae again, but I was pleased with the point out there. I came for a point, and got it. It was critical that we kept pace with the Slovaks going into their games with Andorra. We would have been 3 points behind them now, had we lost it. Don't forget they had just won in Russia, and recently Italy. As Liam Brady said after the game, "we seem to forget all these things".

It's no problem, we don't have to go round in circles, but they are the same team that took a tonking against Armenia, where we edged a close enough game, they were obliterated, in a nowhere-near-close game.
I think we just have a difference of opinion. I saw quite a lot of the Russia game, and they were excellent and quite unlucky and a brainfart of the highest proportions by Akinfeev meant Slovakia got more than they deserved out of the game.
We probably looked at the result of their game against Russia and went in the belief it was vital to not lost at all costs (which is was) rather than focus on the win that we could have, and should have got (based on the good opportunities we passed up).
I'm happy not to debate it further though.

Look, anywhere where they're served drink on tap is a "good" trip to them. Few imo are interested in sightseeing, or experiencing the local culture. They pay 800 quid to Abbey per trip for 3 days in an Irish Pub. They could do it at home as well for a fraction of the cost. There's not that much to do, but all they need is a pub, so as long as they have that, they're happy.

Unfortunately it's hard not to agree with that. Of tghe YBIG I know, few, if any, went with Abbey Travel. I know I certainly don't, as you say it's so handy to book things independently. I agree with the synopsis of what they seem to constitute a good trip though. Personally speaking, as Geysir alluded to, if I'm paying a few quid to go to a country I'll rarely, if ever, visit again, then I'm going to make the most of it and take in all that I can.
Not having touched a drink in a few years helps, but is also a hinderance in some respects, in that most of my travelling companions are eager to get liquored up. I was far more comfortable drinking casually with the Macedonians after the game over the other side of the bridge than with the large Irish crowd on the strip.

[off-topic for a mo, a good friend of mine who was there for the best part of 8 days, went to Lake Ohrid (or 'orrid as we christened it in advance) from Sofia for the first 5 days. Said it was excellent, extremely cheap, beautiful and well worth a visit if doing any kind of Balkan holiday - well recommended.]