Crowds at non-league games / candidates for expansion

**Kingdom** · 21/07/2010, 8:40 AM

I could be a million miles off this but I always got the impression that LSL clubs, the bigger ones mind, paid their players to a degree, under the table - I know Mount Merrion who were 3rd division LSL were attracting players that wouldn't have been out of place in LOI 1st division never mind LSL 1st division. If these clubs were to go to the LOI would they have to declare their income wages paid out etc.?

**endabob1** · 21/07/2010, 10:29 AM

The whole thing needs to restructured from the bottom up, Junior Clubs need to feed into senior clubs, centres of excellence need to be established to keep 15/16 year olds in Ireland, there are a lot of small steps that could and should be taken but the whole structure is crying out for reform. Unfortunately there are too many clubs both senior & Junior that have their own narrow agendas, but the FAI run football in Ireland it's up to them to put the structure in place, put the rules in place to keep clubs in check and enforce those rules when clubs step out of line.
I think a Premier Division of 16 clubs with 4 (Dublin, Leinster, Munster Connacht/Ulster) regional feeder leagues would be the best structure, it cuts down on travel time and expense. End of season promotion/relegation play-offs but clubs can only get promoted if (proper) licensing criteria is met.
That said changing the top divisions is deck chairs on the titanic stuff unless it's done all the way down to Junior and especially underage clubs.

**Aberdonian Stu** · 21/07/2010, 1:06 PM

Well if there was a way to create a true pyramid without aggravating power-brokers, because any effort that aggravates them would fail, then it would at least bring a bit more coherency to matters.

**Tony Soprano** · 21/07/2010, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kingdom

I could be a million miles off this but I always got the impression that LSL clubs, the bigger ones mind, paid their players to a degree, under the table - I know Mount Merrion who were 3rd division LSL were attracting players that wouldn't have been out of place in LOI 1st division never mind LSL 1st division. If these clubs were to go to the LOI would they have to declare their income wages paid out etc.?

any idea of what are we talking about - 100 euros a game ? where do they get the money from ?

I've no idea how the LSL works - do any of them actually charge people for admission to games ?

Originally Posted by endabob1

The whole thing needs to restructured from the bottom up, Junior Clubs need to feed into senior clubs, centres of excellence need to be established to keep 15/16 year olds in Ireland, there are a lot of small steps that could and should be taken but the whole structure is crying out for reform. Unfortunately there are too many clubs both senior & Junior that have their own narrow agendas, but the FAI run football in Ireland it's up to them to put the structure in place, put the rules in place to keep clubs in check and enforce those rules when clubs step out of line.
I think a Premier Division of 16 clubs with 4 (Dublin, Leinster, Munster Connacht/Ulster) regional feeder leagues would be the best structure, it cuts down on travel time and expense. End of season promotion/relegation play-offs but clubs can only get promoted if (proper) licensing criteria is met.
That said changing the top divisions is deck chairs on the titanic stuff unless it's done all the way down to Junior and especially underage clubs.

agree with nearly all of that

don't like the idea of club licensing being too strict. this can keep clubs away, especially ground regulations. we don't want clubs going bust mid-season and playing in dangerous grounds. apart from that regulations shouldn't be too extensive in my opinion

Salthill are operating on a budget of 55k in the FD according to a poster on another thread. surely lots of LSL and town teams could manage that. and costs would be much less in the regionlised lower tiers

its quite unusual effectively having the LOI as a closed shop. not sure this happens anyhwere else (apart from Scotland but at least they have 40 clubs) seems everywhere else the pro leagues are linked to the lower levels

FAI needs to help with trying to keep kids at home for longer, this is a complex issue. not sure clubs have resources to do it on their own.

**fionnsci** · 23/07/2010, 10:31 AM

A football pyramid akin to that in England is not possible in Ireland. The current system does however allow for expansion into the A Championship without the need to drastically change the whole structure of the league. There are only a handful of towns/teams left capable of potentially hosting high level league football without LOI/A Champ representation so it would be unwise to expand the system to anything other than the current 3 tiers. Also, if the LSL were to merge, the LOI First Division would quickly fill up with the Crumlin Uniteds, Cherry Orchards of this world. Successful footballing clubs but with little to offer the LOI.

**KevB76** · 23/07/2010, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by **FrOsTy**

I wasn't pointing out that Salthill and Mervue should amalgamate. Sorry should of cleared that up. If the likes of Clonmel Town/ Clonmel Celtic/ Carrick United amalgamated then there would be a decent side from Tipperary which 2 big(ish) areas would have a team to support. I remember Carrick brought a heap of fans to the FAI Junior Cup Final v Killester a few years back. There is also a lot of good players from the area.

Aren't Carrick from Waterford ?

**Big Chief** · 28/07/2010, 11:45 AM

There is absolutely no point in adding more teams to the League of Ireland. The harsh reality is that there is no enough public interest in the League as it stands to justify the number of teams participating. I have previously named a number of teams who I would seriously consider removing from the League. The crowds at games are pitiful enough as things are without allowing more teams to enter senior football who draw the proverbial six men and a dog to mathces.

The one point I do agree with is the idea that Junior clubs should effectively become feeder clubs for those invoved with senior football.

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2010, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by KevB76

Aren't Carrick from Waterford ?

Aren't they the crowd who are just over the Waterford border but play in the Tipp leagues?

**passerrby** · 28/07/2010, 12:29 PM

dont like to disagree but cant see any club running on a budget of 55k. im sure if you take into consideration registration/affilation fees ,medical , refs, transport, kits
fines, vat, match day running costs ,player expenses if any , cant see much change from 100k

**dcfcsteve** · 28/07/2010, 12:51 PM

[QUOTE=Tony Soprano;1378826]
its quite unusual effectively having the LOI as a closed shop. not sure this happens anyhwere else (apart from Scotland but at least they have 40 clubs) seems everywhere else the pro leagues are linked to the lower levels

I was under the impression that the opposite was true - that it's not the norm to have a fully integrated structure between senior football and the various levels below.

England only brought in the pyramid instead of election entry system about 20yrs ago.

**Riddickcule** · 28/07/2010, 2:48 PM

Agree with fionnsci the english system can't work here, 2 divisions followed by a conference is the best option. If I were calling the shots in the near future I would expand the LOI to 28 teams, bring Castlebar, Cobh, Carlow, Tralee, Tullamore, Portlaoise, and bring back Kilkenny and Kildare. I'd rid of Salthill and Mervue, may be unfair but necessary for the league imo. I'd bring clubs like Mullingar and Clonmel into the A Championship. They need LOI teams.

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2010, 2:52 PM

Who'd run Kilkenny and Kildare? The people who opted out of running them recently? (Don't mean to criticise the decision to stop being involved obviously)

**Riddickcule** · 28/07/2010, 2:56 PM

Surely you can't expect me to answer that. If it creates jobs which is what we need in this country then would it be that hard to bring them back?

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2010, 3:03 PM

Do you honestly think running Kilkenny City or Kildare County (or any other small LoI club) creates jobs?!

Do you realise how much time is spent by volunteers running LoI clubs?

**osarusan** · 28/07/2010, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Riddickcule

Agree with fionnsci the english system can't work here, 2 divisions followed by a conference is the best option. If I were calling the shots in the near future I would expand the LOI to 28 teams, bring Castlebar, Cobh, Carlow, Tralee, Tullamore, Portlaoise, and bring back Kilkenny and Kildare. I'd rid of Salthill and Mervue, may be unfair but necessary for the league imo. I'd bring clubs like Mullingar and Clonmel into the A Championship. They need LOI teams.

Why the hell would you get rid of Salthill and Mervue? At least they've shown a bit of ambition by trying to play LOI, which some of the other teams haven't.

All you've done is chosen a few biggish towns that don't have LOI teams, but the fact that they are biggish towns without LOI teams should tell you something. If these places 'need LOI teams', why don't they have them?

**passerrby** · 28/07/2010, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Riddickcule

Surely you can't expect me to answer that. If it creates jobs which is what we need in this country then would it be that hard to bring them back?

them silly people of kilkeny and kildare did they not think of all the jobs they were losing.
so merve and salthill could not be allowed in the a championship cause they might get promoted to the FD but its ok for carlow to get promoted

in the words of monthy pyton hes making it up as hr goes along

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2010, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Riddickcule

Surely you can't expect me to answer that. If it creates jobs which is what we need in this country then would it be that hard to bring them back?

Sorry, just had to come back to this. It is quite possibly the single stupidest comment I have ever, ever seen. Like, the more I read it, the less I can believe that, in your world, such a thing makes sense. No harm to you, but it really really sums up your knowledge of the game. Enjoy the Bray games - it's great that you at least support your local club - but please learn a bit about the game here before making such mind-numbingly silly comments in future. Please.

**Riddickcule** · 28/07/2010, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Sorry, just had to come back to this. It is quite possibly the single stupidest comment I have ever, ever seen. Like, the more I read it, the less I can believe that, in your world, such a thing makes sense. No harm to you, but it really really sums up your knowledge of the game. Enjoy the Bray games - it's great that you at least support your local club - but please learn a bit about the game here before making such mind-numbingly silly comments in future. Please.

Basically what you're saying is under 18's should be banned from joining this forum. Nice to see people have no patience with young minds. Chap, cut me some slack, I've only been interested in Irish football for 4 years. How about instead, you correct me not Riddickcule me.

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2010, 4:14 PM

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in that post alright. But seriously - Kildare and Kilkenny got crowds of about 100 per game. How on earth do you expect them to have employed people? That's an idea I'd expect under 8s to realise.

And God knows, posters have corrected you over and over again in the past couple of years; you'd imagine you'd take something on board from that. You really do yourself no favours at times.