Al Qaeda and what the problem really is.

[brendy_éire]

But cast your mind back to September 10, 2001. That was a different world back then.

No it wasn't. It was exactly the same as the world is now. The only thing that has changed is that the US actually began to take notice of what it was doing in the Middle East. Unfortunately, they've gone about solving it the complete opposite way in which they should have.

Look at Israel, they have turned many barren parts of the country for agricultural use and are quite advanced technologically. Ture, they get a lot of support from the US, but it is the people there who made made it work.

The people can have all the good intentions in the world, but they won't get anywhere without money. It's called capitalism.

[liamon]

No it wasn't. It was exactly the same as the world is now. The only thing that has changed is that the US actually began to take notice of what it was doing in the Middle East. Unfortunately, they've gone about solving it the complete opposite way in which they should have.

The people can have all the good intentions in the world, but they won't get anywhere with money. It's called capitalism.

I don't think the Middle East has changed that much in the last 10 years. I was in Egypt on Sept 11th 2001 and the average Arab on the street hated the USA then and they still do now. Same reason - the Israeli situation.

As for money not getting you anywhere....have you not looked around Ireland in the last 10 years and seen what a bit of investment can do?

[Éanna]

Israel would collapse if they didnt have the support of the US, but noone else does support them.

And so it should. It is an illegal country, stolen from the rightfull occupants of that land. It has no right to exist.

Israel are a close allie of the US and the jewish community in the US will always be such a factor that there will always have to be support.

Thats the US's decision. Of course I'm sure Hitler argued that invading the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia and annexing Austria was because of the close ties between Germany and the people of those countries. Just because the US is Israel's only friend doesn't mean the US should give it free reign to do what it wants. Ths US is being used by Israel- its saying we've got a superpower behind us and we'll kill who we want. The US lets them, and now its reaping what it has sowed.

As for the Palestinians, they are like what the jews were for hundreds of years; a people without a country.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right. And its about time the Jews made their minds up whether they are a religion or a political entity

[Éanna]

I don't think the Middle East has changed that much in the last 10 years. I was in Egypt on Sept 11th 2001 and the average Arab on the street hated the USA then and they still do now. Same reason - the Israeli situation.

Spot on. 11/9 would not have happened if the US had behaved in a moral and responsible way towards Arab countries and the Palestinian situation. It was only a matter of time before somebody reacted. American weapons are being used to kill palestinian kids, so it doesn't take a genius (but Bush still didn't cop it) to realise something was on the way.

[brendy_éire]

As for money not getting you anywhere....have you not looked around Ireland in the last 10 years and seen what a bit of investment can do?

Sorry, meant to say 'without' money.

[Metrostars]

And so it should. It is an illegal country, stolen from the rightfull occupants of that land. It has no right to exist.

Hmm, that sounds an awful lot like what some demented Austrian once said. As for Judaism, it is not just a religion. It is also a culture and a group of people and they do have a right to exist.

If you say that the land of Israel was stolen, you need to go back and look at history and who were the original inhabitants of the land. After the exile by the Romans, the Jews migrated to Europe and North Africa. In the first half of the 20th century there were major waves of immigration of Jews back to Palestine from Arab countries and from Europe when Britain ruled Palestine. Also, the Palestine country which Britain ruled was not just current day Israel but also much of Jordan.

The day after Israel declared independance, they were attacked by their Arab neighbours (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon). After this war, Israel and the other countries came to a settlement with the help of the UN. Then in 1967 Israel preempted invasion plans by their neighbouring countries by attacking them. The 6-day War ended with Israel capturing Gaza, most of the West Bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai peninsula. Israel was attacked again in 1973 known as the Yom Kippur war. Eventually Israel gave back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt. Then with the Oslo agreement allowed parts of the West Bank and Gaza come under Palestinian control.

It was only a matter of time before somebody reacted.

In other words, the US had it coming, right?

American weapons are being used to kill palestinian kids

1. You are great at spinning facts
2. Do you think the PLO are frigging angels?

[brendy_éire]

In other words, the US had it coming, right?

Yep. And ye's have even more of it coming.

1. You are great at spinning facts
2. Do you think the PLO are frigging angels?

So you're defending the right of the Israeli Army to shoot Palestinian children then?

You also seem to be defending the right of Israeli action after its creation? True, most Arab countries weren't happy about the creation of the state of Israel, but Israel has done nothing to attempt to build up good relations between itself and its neighbours. Israel has done nothing but act agressively against its neighbours. (With the backing of US military aid, of course)

Read again the UN resolutions that Israel is in violation of. Read again the proposed UN resolutions vetoed by the US. Ask yourself, is that right?

[Metrostars]

Yep. And ye's have even more of it coming.



So you're defending the right of the Israeli Army to shoot Palestinian children then?

You also seem to be defending the right of Israeli action after its creation? True, most Arab countries weren't happy about the creation of the state of Israel, but Israel has done nothing to attempt to build up good relations between itself and its neighbours. Israel has done nothing but act agressively against its neighbours. (With the backing of US military aid, of course)

Go back and review history. Israel was being attacked by the arab countries in the early days of the state and in the wars in the 60s and 70s. What do you expect them to have done? While they have made many mistakes, it is totally incorrect to blame all the issues in the middle east on Israel and the US. Israel is there whether the other countries like it or not.
BTW, the IDF doesnt target palestinian children but doesnt do a great job in preventing colatteral damage when going after terrorist leaders.

[Éanna]

Hmm, that sounds an awful lot like what some demented Austrian once said. As for Judaism, it is not just a religion. It is also a culture and a group of people and they do have a right to exist.

they have a right to exist, they can even go found a country somewhere, but they had no right to just steal one from someone else.

Then in 1967 Israel preempted invasion plans by their neighbouring countries by attacking them.

Ah yes "pre-empted". that wonderful phrase the terrorist governments of the US and Israel like to use as a euphemism for "blowing them to pieces just in case they think of attacking us." Self-defence is a right of every country. Blowing people up because they don't like you is not.

The 6-day War ended with Israel capturing Gaza, most of the West Bank, the Golan Heights and the Sinai peninsula. Israel was attacked again in 1973 known as the Yom Kippur war. Eventually Israel gave back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt. Then with the Oslo agreement allowed parts of the West Bank and Gaza come under Palestinian control.

I don't need a history lesson. I wouldn't have said what I did if I was ignorant of the facts.

In other words, the US had it coming, right?

I was trying to be nice about it, but in a nutshell- yes. You can only get away with ****ing half the world off for so long before somebody hits back, wong and all as they may be.

1. You are great at spinning facts

Not as good as Ari Fleischer, CBs, CNN and all the other Josef Goebbels wannabe's who happily trot out the White House official line. What I do is look at the facts, ananlyse and then make my mind up. What they do is lie and kill. I think there's a difference. And most Americans don't know what the facts are- they know what their leaders want them to know

2. Do you think the PLO are frigging angels?

No. They are indirectly (maybe even directly) responsible for the murder of many people, and there is no decent human being who would condone it. However, they are a lot closer to the moral high ground than Israel is.

[Éanna]

those indviduals did not. but Establishment America- its government, the CIA, its arms dealers and its multinationals did. It was just the poor ****ers who are stupid enough to keep voting for the same foreign policy (Clinton, Bush whoever- its all pretty much the same) over and over again who bore the brunt of it

[pete]

those indviduals did not. but Establishment America- its government, the CIA, its arms dealers and its multinationals did. It was just the poor ****ers who are stupid enough to keep voting for the same foreign policy (Clinton, Bush whoever- its all pretty much the same) over and over again who bore the brunt of it

I strongly belive the US voter did not know what they voting fpor when got Dubya. He campigned on so many things that he has done a u-turn on since 9/11. On the other hand if they re-elect him they can't say they didn't know what he like then.

[Metrostars]

Ah yes "pre-empted". that wonderful phrase the terrorist governments of the US and Israel like to use as a euphemism for "blowing them to pieces just in case they think of attacking us." Self-defence is a right of every country. Blowing people up because they don't like you is not.

You're making stuff up and you're not even good at it. Israel did preempt the 6 day war in 1967. Jordan, Syria and Egypt marched their forces to the Israeli border and were ready to attack. But Israel moved quicker.

Not as good as Ari Fleischer, CBs, CNN and all the other Josef Goebbels wannabe's who happily trot out the White House official line. What I do is look at the facts, ananlyse and then make my mind up. What they do is lie and kill. I think there's a difference. And most Americans don't know what the facts are- they know what their leaders want them to know

And it appears that you don't know what the facts are. You only believe what you want to believe.

However, they are a lot closer to the moral high ground than Israel is.

Well then, there you have it.

[Metrostars]

I strongly belive the US voter did not know what they voting fpor when got Dubya. He campigned on so many things that he has done a u-turn on since 9/11.

I'm not a Bush supporter but in his defense, everything changed in the US on 9/11.

On the other hand if they re-elect him they can't say they didn't know what he like then.

The problem is that Kerry is no great shakes and will not be an improvement over Bush. I'm really disappointed Dean didnt get the Dems nomination. He would have rightfully shaken things up.

[liamon]

I strongly belive the US voter did not know what they voting fpor when got Dubya. .... On the other hand if they re-elect him they can't say they didn't know what he like then.

Then again, given the efficiency of the White house propoganda, does anyone on the streets in the US really know what's going on? All they see is a president who's keen to fight back against the terrorists and this is portrayed as a good thing in the US media. Invading Iraq = good way to discourage terrorism? I think we in Europe get a slightly more balanced view of the situation.
Propoganda is very effective as many governments have shown throughout the last 100 years, so I don't expect the average person to see past the Pentagon line.

As someone who deals with Americans a lot, I have to say their knowledge of international affairs is shocking. As just one example, last week I was talking to an engineer who didn't even know what the European Union was. He could barely find France on a map and had no idea about Asia or the Middle East. And he's one of the highly educated ones!

[Metrostars]

Then again, given the efficiency of the White house propoganda, does anyone on the streets in the US really know what's going on? All they see is a president who's keen to fight back against the terrorists and this is portrayed as a good thing in the US media. Invading Iraq = good way to discourage terrorism? I think we in Europe get a slightly more balanced view of the situation.
Propoganda is very effective as many governments have shown throughout the last 100 years, so I don't expect the average person to see past the Pentagon line.

As someone who deals with Americans a lot, I have to say their knowledge of international affairs is shocking. As just one example, last week I was talking to an engineer who didn't even know what the European Union was. He could barely find France on a map and had no idea about Asia or the Middle East. And he's one of the highly educated ones!

I would have to agree with you regarding most Americans being clueless about international affairs. But the media is not portraying Iraq as just a must-do good thing. Right now the view on Iraq is about 50-50 here. There are some who are so freaked out by 9/11 and believe Bush can do no wrong and some who will always be against whatever Bush even if he would sucumb to whatever the UN says.
I would also have to say that while your statement about the European media may be correct, it doesnt nessessarily mean the Euro media is always 100% correct and not biased.

[brendy_éire]

You see, this is what I dislike. 'You had it coming' is a phrase that seeks to justify an event. There is no justification for simply wiping out 3,000 innocent men, women and children. You profess a dislike for targetting civilians...

...but unfortunately every now and again you let a phrase slip which suggests that you positively welcomed it.

The 3,000 people that were wiped out by a terrorist did not 'have it coming' in any way, shape or form. To suggest otherwise is simply perverse.

But they did have it coming! And aye, there's more on the way. That does not excuse it for happening, it just explains it.
I don't 'positively welcome' attacks against America. I just think they're inevitable and the yanks have no right to complain and whinge about it when it happens. You can't kick a sleeping dog, then cry when it bites you. A lot of Americans were surprised about 11/9/01 attacks. They couldn't understand why. Having left the US about 2 weeks before the attacks, I got talking to them about their foreign policy. They just didn't seem to realise what they were doing, and didn't believe me when I said it's all gonnae boil over some day. The ignorance of the US public and the cold-heartedness of their leaders (after all, they can then look like the tough guy and fight the "evil terrorists") are to blame for their problems. Hard lines, I say.

As for Americans and geography, don't get me started. It's just pure ignorance, nothing else. People ask where you're from, I say "Ireland". They go "where's that?" Me: "Western Europe" [blank stare from the yank] Me:"...never mind."
Strange thing about it, mention that you're Irish and they all love ye.
(Worth a look: http://edition.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATIO...eography.quiz/)

[liamon]

I don’t think Americans are intentionally ignorant. When you talk to them, they seem genuinely interested in foreign lands. It’s just a simple case of their media not supplying them with a lot of foreign news. If the mainstream media don’t give you sufficient info, it takes a lot of effort to go out and get a broad view of international affairs.

Unless you’re a lazy student with nothing better to do that surf the web all day.