4.4.2 outdated, who would you play in a 4.2.3.1 system

[jbyrne]

How can one person be so utterly, consistenly wrong about everything?

England beat themselves? What does that mean? Did they score four own goals and run the line too?

The Germans beat the English, and they did it with an attacking one-up-front formation.

agree. by having the extra men running from midfiled they sucked the english central defence out and created lots of space in behind. it only really works well with lots of pace and the german team have that in spades

[geysir]

They beat Argentina pretty much playing 3 upfront.

[irishfan86]

I think the point we're all missing here is that Germany play a very fluid formation. The best teams generally switch and swap and alternate all over the place. A defender pushes up to join the attack, a midfielder falls into defense to cover him. A midfielder makes a run into the box, a forward drops back to the top of the box to offer a supporting option, etc.

England were far too static and that is why they were massacred. Argentina play a fluid enough game, but I think their problem was perhaps too much fluidity and not enough structure. Germany have had a great combination of fluidity and structure so far, but this Spanish team may just be too much for them.

[Stuttgart88]

Well said. You'd swear some people thought football was like table football where the notional shape you start with must be kept throughout the game.

[Charlie Darwin]

Now that Germany have been well beaten, is it time to declare the 4-2-3-1 outdated?

[irishfan86]

Now that Germany have been well beaten, is it time to declare the 4-2-3-1 outdated?

Spain play it too, or some variant of it....

[Closed Account]

Except Spain were playing that formation also? And so do the Netherlands......
If only Ireland had a Sneijder or Xavi.

(Just to be clear, I think this whole debate is nonsense. Find a formation that works with your players and stick to it. The key is discipline. If your told to play wide left, play wide left, goals are conceded when someone isn't doing their job)

[geysir]

We could do with someone who has the ability to make himself invisible to the ref, like Van Bommel can.

[mypost]

(Just to be clear, I think this whole debate is nonsense. Find a formation that works with your players and stick to it. The key is discipline. If your told to play wide left, play wide left, goals are conceded when someone isn't doing their job)

The 4-2-3-1 system was shown last night for what it is, a defensive system which backfired for the Germans against decent opposition. Against weak sides it may work, but against proper sides when you're chasing the game, you never have the ball, and it's a matter of time before you get your arse kicked. It duly happened last night.

4-4-2 is 2 full backs, 2 centre backs, 2 centre midfielders, 2 wingers, and 2 forwards. It has balance and makes sense. 4-2-3-1 is a crap formation that will sooner or later be exposed. Find your players, then fit your formation around the players, not the other way around.

[Dodge]

The 4-2-3-1 system was shown last night for what it is, a defensive system which backfired for the Germans against decent opposition. Against weak sides it may work, but against proper sides when you're chasing the game, you never have the ball, and it's a matter of time before you get your arse kicked. It duly happened last night.

Spain played 4-2-3-1 too so thats another of your theories gazumped

[mypost]

thats another of your theories gazumped

If you read mypost, rather than simply quoting it, the last line of the paragraph quoted, shows that not to be the case.

[Dodge]

What are you talking about? You said Germany losing was proof that the formation wouldn't work against good teams. However as Spain played EXACTLY the same formation your theory, like most of them, is rubbish

[geysir]

You 2 guys don't get on do you?
Maybe Germany are way inferior to Spain?
For Germany it did not work against Spain, mainly because they lost their bottle to make any plan work. Tactically, maybe they would have been better employed to bi-pass the midfield jam.

[pineapple stu]

Maybe Germany are way inferior to Spain?

Of course Germany are inferior to Spain. Of course that's why Spain won. But mypost seems to think it was purely an error of formation that lost Germany the game, even though Spain played the same formation.

[Dodge]

You 2 guys don't get on do you?
Maybe Germany are way inferior to Spain?
For Germany it did not work against Spain, mainly because they lost their bottle to make any plan work. Tactically, maybe they would have been better employed to bi-pass the midfield jam.

If you read my first post in theis thread I said formations don't matter. mypost thinks Germany lost because of the formation. I'm saying the same formation won ergo, the formation isn't important.

[geysir]

Of course Germany are inferior to Spain. Of course that's why Spain won. But mypost seems to think it was purely an error of formation that lost Germany the game, even though Spain played the same formation.

That's not how I read mypost's post.
"Against weak sides it may work, but against proper sides when you're chasing the game, you never have the ball, and it's a matter of time before you get your arse kicked. It duly happened last night."

[Dodge]

Which, of course, is rubbish as Spain played the same formation and weren't chasing the game, did have the ball, and certianly dind't have their arse kicked

[osarusan]

In fairness to mypost, in the first paragraph of that post he's saying it's a crap formation when you're chasing the game.

but against proper sides when you're chasing the game

Later on though, he makes a more sweeping statement.

4-2-3-1 is a crap formation that will sooner or later be exposed.

As for the rest of the post

Find your players, then fit your formation around the players, not the other way around.

But that's the case with any formation. If you force any formation on players who aren't comfortable with the roles they're being asked to play, they'll be exposed. 4-2-3-1 no more so than any other formation.

4-4-2 is 2 full backs, 2 centre backs, 2 centre midfielders, 2 wingers, and 2 forwards. It has balance and makes sense.

It only has balance and makes sense if you have players to fill each of those positions. Otherwise it'll be exposed like any other formation.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think the formation works well for Germany but they just didn't have enough players with 5-6 years of top class football to actually hold onto the ball and ensure they weren't always running around in circles after the Spaniards. This German side will be a treat to watch in 4 years when the likes of Mueller, Khedira and Oezil have that experience and Schweinsteiger is in his prime. We've already seen with Spain what a difference 2 or 4 years can do compared with the team that meekly went out at Euro 04 and the World Cup in Germany.

[Dodge]

Well thats the point. Sometimes, just sometimes, the better team wins. No fault at all for last night's result lies with Germany IMO. They just came up against a better side.

I hate this tendancy (and its not in this thread BTW) for people to seek to lay the blame for defet with someone. It mightn't be the coach, it mightn't be the formation, it mightn't be individual players. Sometimes, a team just isn't good enough and loses to the better side.

BTW the comments from the German squad after alst nights games were encouraging. Basically saying they tried but coldn't cope. No shame in losing to this spanish side