Israel

[Docboy]

I wouldn't believe a word coming from the Israeli side given their history for subterfuge in similar situations. Are they seriously expecting us to believe that a ragtag bunch of do-gooders (not rubbishing the work being done) would take on the most heavily armed military in the world?

Never ceases to amaze me how little empathy they have for other people's suffering given what their race was put through.

[Spudulika]

If we roll it back, and this is something mentioned by Arab Muslim and Jewish scholars who were in Palestine pre-war, the pogroms of Stalin and co, the extermination led by Hitler, the moral cowardice of the cheeating handballing French, the active hatred of the Italians, the Croatian, Serbian and other Yugoslav bloodthirstiness, and the general elimination of the "jewish problem" that was not helped by the spineless Irish to any great degree, was completed when tens of thousands of europeans were shunted out of the continent and thrown into the mix in a foreign land. The argument, by these scholars has been - large parts of Germany had been cleared - what wasn't it repopulated with displaced jews from around europe and ringfenced (for want of a better word)? I'm not for a moment excusing the horrible attitudes of the "only democracy in town" which is nonsense anyway, as tracts of jews and arabs are prevented from having a voice. However it's about time that something major was done, and Israel was told to cop itself on - it is a distablising state, it has meddled and messed in affairs of nations around it and needs a good boot.

[MariborKev]

However it's about time that something major was done, and Israel was told to cop itself on - it is a distablising state, it has meddled and messed in affairs of nations around it and needs a good boot.

And the chances of that happening?

Once again, it rolls out that "If you are anti Israeli then you are an anti semite" ******.

Israel should be
-Forced to re-open all the checkpoints to Gaza to allow reconstruction material etc in
-Made to stop building new checkpoints(their own High Court has ruled it illegal in some cases FFS)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Like John, I'd be wary of passing comment on this due to the emotions on both sides, but in '48 the UN had a partition plan just like the arrangement that will be enforced when the Palestinians get independence, the Jews agreed, the Arabs wouldn't, with the result that the neighbouring countries invaded, so for once the British aren't to blame, even though they carved out Palestine first day. Israel can blamed for this incident, building the "security wall" that annexes half the West Bank and the settlement, but they do have some fair grievances, like that Hamas want to wipe their country off the map and that most of the neighbouring states and Iran continue to refuse to recognise them, so there's fault on both sides that only a two-state situation can solve.

You might like to read up on the history of Jewish independence and certain activities of Israeli governments since, especially in the last 40 years, which have helped perpetuate the main issues based on their aggression which combined with every Muslim fundamentalist and successive US foreign policy has helped widen this conflict across much of the globe......

[Rasputin]

The creation of their state was greeted with a declaration of war from five neighbouring countries. That´s a curious definition of "first" you have there.

The creation of the state?
Are you for real?
You do mean the Nakba right?
Where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their lands by either the Terrorist "Stern gang" or by official military forces.
Hows that for a "first"?

Like John, I'd be wary of passing comment on this due to the emotions on both sides, but in '48 the UN had a partition plan just like the arrangement that will be enforced when the Palestinians get independence, the Jews agreed, the Arabs wouldn't,

Look at my map above.
I know if me and my family were ethncially cleansed from my home and forced into a refugee camp I wouldnt accept it.

with the result that the neighbouring countries invaded, so for once the British aren't to blame, even though they carved out Palestine first day.

Britain capitulated to the likes of the Stern Gang because they couldnt contain the violence.
They also had a hard on for Zionist rehtorric that apparently the Jewish religion warranted its own state as was outlined in the cast iron legal document that is called the Torah.

Israel can blamed for this incident, building the "security wall" that annexes half the West Bank and the settlement,

Thats good of you.
The internationally illegal 436 mile 8 meter high perimeter wall that not only snatchs even more land off the Palestinians while they continue to expand their internationally illegal settlements in the west bank.

but they do have some fair grievances, like that Hamas want to wipe their country off the map and that most of the neighbouring states and Iran continue to refuse to recognise them,

But these are merely reactions to the contexts they found themselves in.
Iranians or Palestinians were not queing up to blow themselves up in Jewish markets before the UN and Britain and America thought it would be ncie to have a puppet state in the middle east.
These extremist views were only formented after the injustices of ethnically cleansed Palestinians and the subjegation of a people.
This is not even mentioning the fact that Israel helped set up Hamas to undermine the largely secular PLO.

so there's fault on both sides that only a two-state situation can solve.

Indeed theres fault on both sides but fault lies in far greater proportion on one side than on the other.

[OneRedArmy]

The creation of the state?
Are you for real?
You do mean the Nakba right?
Where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their lands by either the Terrorist "Stern gang" or by official military forces.
Hows that for a "first"?



Look at my map above.
I know if me and my family were ethncially cleansed from my home and forced into a refugee camp I wouldnt accept it.
Britain capitulated to the likes of the Stern Gang because they couldnt contain the violence.
They also had a hard on for Zionist rehtorric that apparently the Jewish religion warranted its own state as was outlined in the cast iron legal document that is called the Torah.
Thats good of you.
The internationally illegal 436 mile 8 meter high perimeter wall that not only snatchs even more land off the Palestinians while they continue to expand their internationally illegal settlements in the west bank.
But these are merely reactions to the contexts they found themselves in.
Iranians or Palestinians were not queing up to blow themselves up in Jewish markets before the UN and Britain and America thought it would be ncie to have a puppet state in the middle east.
These extremist views were only formented after the injustices of ethnically cleansed Palestinians and the subjegation of a people.
This is not even mentioning the fact that Israel helped set up Hamas to undermine the largely secular PLO.
Indeed theres fault on both sides but fault lies in far greater proportion on one side than on the other.

How do you propose solving the problem?

And when I mean the problem, I mean the whole problem (basically as you've outlined). Would Israel rolling back to either the 67 or 74 boundaries keep the wider Middle Eastern world onside? If you accept that a certain percentage of the region see nothing short of total Jewish annilihation as acceptable, then there is no solution.

I'm not being smart or anything, but the problems are so intractable its almost impossible to see a way out.

[Spudulika]

I don't know if anyone has been to a refugee camp, I have, in Jordan, and Jordan is one of the most accepting places for Palestinians, and has left itself open to chaos as a result. The population is close to 50-50 Palestinian-Jordanian and while there is peace there, before long some of the loonies will grab power and then we're in an all out war. I can understand where the Palestinians are coming from, and I object to Israel being called the only democracy in the ME, according to Bush and Co Iraq is now a democracy, yet the biggest and baddest dictatorship goes untouched - Saudi Arabia. No amount of UN rhetoric will solve the problem, only a concerted international effort that will bring in line the radicals on all sides.

The Jewish lobby is too great in the UK and USA to do anything decent, and the EU is no better. They're happy to leave a strip of desert in a constant state of fear as it buys into their little game. I don't see an all-out attack on Israel by it's neighbours doing much, or vice versa. There is no solution. We're stuck with this until a modern day Saladin comes in, crushes the Israeli state, and allows all faiths to worship to their invisible friend.

[Rasputin]

How do you propose solving the problem?

The only viable solution is a return to 1967 borders.
To role back the Zionist policies of ethnically cleansing Palestinian lands its not that difficult and not that different to how their allys in apartheid South Africa were crushed.
And that is of course economic sanctions that crush the state and the cutting of America's bank rolling of the Zionist regime.
But for that to occur there must be political will among the EU and America to actually curtail the injustices of Israel.
But that simply wont happen because in the wider socio-economic political context Israel is a key ally of America and the EU in a very valuable region.

And when I mean the problem, I mean the whole problem (basically as you've outlined). Would Israel rolling back to either the 67 or 74 boundaries keep the wider Middle Eastern world onside?

The wider Middle-Eastern world is onside with Israel, if by the wider Middle-Eastern world you mean the ruling regimes of the respective countrys.
Very few openly oppose Israel, in fact the vast majority of these ruling regimes are allys of Israel.
The only two Middle-Eastern countrys that I can think of that currently oppose Israels policies are Iran and Syria but it must be mentioned that Syria's rehtorric has mellowed signifcantly in the past few years as it comes into line with Americas political line, hence you no longer here the same calls to bomb Syria into oblivion that you did a few years ago.
The likes of Turkey for example has open military training in conjunction with the IDF or even when Israel started its illegal invasion of the Lebanon the reason for Hizbollah's popularity was that it did not bend its knee to Israel as the ruling elite in the Lebanon did.
This whole myth that Israel is under siege by a sea of raving Arabs is nonsense, the over whelming majority of ruling regimes in the Middle East are politically affiliated to Israel in one way or another.

If you accept that a certain percentage of the region see nothing short of total Jewish annilihation as acceptable, then there is no solution.

Of course there is raving anti-semites in the Middle East but to say that with this factor there can be no solution is wrong IMO.
Its like saying that Europeans cannot have diplomatic relations when there are a certain percentage of Europeans who are lunatic Anti-Semites.

I'm not being smart or anything, but the problems are so intractable its almost impossible to see a way out.

I dont agree.
Its fairly basic really.
The world powers helped facilitate a land grab off a people and planted foreigners that were politically affiliated with the super powers in that territory.
These planters continue to ethnically cleanse the native population in accordance with the Koenig Memorandum.
The planters actions against the native population could be curtailed by the super powers if they choose so and the political will is so.
The reactionary fanatcism that it has created in the a section of the native population is just that, a reaction to the context.
If the cause for the fanatcism is removed it shall eventually fizzle out and die.
Give the Palestinians a land free from Israeli occupation or Israeli interferance and let them move forward but it all depends on the likes of America and the EU.

[Neish]

Never ceases to amaze me how little empathy they have for other people's suffering given what their race was put through.

Thsi is one of the things that annoys me to most abot the actions of the Israelie state, theyhave always satated how they were a victimised people. yet they turn round and do the exact same to others

[Spudulika]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0607/thomash.html

One of the best known and respected op-ed writers, and longest serving in the White House press corps, gets shafted for calling it as it is. It seems that making a truthful statement doesn't work in relatino to Israel. Never going to change.

[OneRedArmy]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0607/thomash.html

One of the best known and respected op-ed writers, and longest serving in the White House press corps, gets shafted for calling it as it is. It seems that making a truthful statement doesn't work in relatino to Israel. Never going to change.

I agree with everything she said, apart from telling the Jews to go back to Poland and Germany. I think that was a bit much to be honest.

That said, the whole anti-semitism thing has in the US been successfully (from their perspective) broadened by the Zionist movement into any critical statement of the Israeli state is decried as anti-semitic, which is quite patently ridiculous. Many Israeli jews disagree with the actions of successive Israeli governments.......are they anti-semitic?

[Spudulika]

ORA, it's a symptom of an overbearing set of governments who are determined to remove choice or dissent from the public. Same thing with any special interest group - travellers, africans, muslims, jews. We have to be very careful with all we say - offend mohammed and you're under a fatwa, question african governments and you're racist, question Israeli actions and you're anti-semite, point out to Irish travellers that they are not a distinct ethnic group but just Irish and Pavee Point are down your throat. In the same way as debate on immigration is stifled in Ireland, all issues that will hold the government up to a moral/active light, are buried by media outrage. And then it's left for Joe to pick up the slack on Livewhine.

[Rasputin]

ORA, it's a symptom of an overbearing set of governments who are determined to remove choice or dissent from the public. Same thing with any special interest group - travellers, africans, muslims, jews. We have to be very careful with all we say - offend mohammed and you're under a fatwa, question african governments and you're racist, question Israeli actions and you're anti-semite, point out to Irish travellers that they are not a distinct ethnic group but just Irish and Pavee Point are down your throat. In the same way as debate on immigration is stifled in Ireland, all issues that will hold the government up to a moral/active light, are buried by media outrage. And then it's left for Joe to pick up the slack on Livewhine.

Really gobsmacked you can compare the Zionist lobby to Pavee Point.

[SkStu]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10311653.stm

Israel reject UN proposal for international inquiry and instead propose to set up their own investigation. Somehow heralded by the US as "an inportant step forward", it would appear, from his comments, that Netanyahu has already determined what the result of the inquiry will be.

It is being rightly ridiculed. What a pathetic sham and to be frank, the USA needs to grow a pair.

• Three-man panel
• Headed by ex-Supreme Court judge Yaakov Tirkel
• Other members: Amos Horev, a retired military officer; and Shabtai Rosen, a professor of international law
• Two foreign observers: David Trimble and Ken Watkin
• Will consider how nine Turkish activists died after their ship was boarded by Israeli commandos
• Will also adjudge whether Israel's naval blockade of Gaza is allowed under international law

[Spudulika]

Really gobsmacked you can compare the Zionist lobby to Pavee Point.

When the headers back in the 1890's when the British Israelites were over ripping up the Hill of Tara to find the Ark of the Covenant, one of their claims was that the Irish gypsy/traveller was actually a pureblood jew who had wandered from the "homeland" to the westernmost shores of Europe. They provided acres of evidence of this from fairs, rites, festivals etc. So it's not too great a leap :-) Both sides makes claims that have little basis, and both claim racism when you question their standpoints.

Very good reaction piece to the diplomat expulsion - I particularly love the line:

One Israeli official responded to Martin’s comment by saying, “If and when Ireland will come to face a cruel enemy dedicated to its total obliteration by all means, only then will there be any moral authority to the preaching coming out of Dublin.”

em, yes, someone needs to open an ould history book!
http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=178570

[Docboy]

That's what you're dealing with folks: "you wouldn't understand". The thing is that most of us have fairly good understanding if the sense that by acting they way Isreal are they are only ensuring that the threat against their state will continue long into the next generation. Amazing how these hardliners can never see the error of their ways.

[Spudulika]

That's what you're dealing with folks: "you wouldn't understand". The thing is that most of us have fairly good understanding if the sense that by acting they way Isreal are they are only ensuring that the threat against their state will continue long into the next generation. Amazing how these hardliners can never see the error of their ways.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...l-2220558.html

Sometimes it can be hard to take alot of what KM takes fully seriously as he is a polemicist and has his tongue firmly in cheek. However this is pretty straightforward and blunt - and he's been hammered for it already. He specifically states that there is no correlation between anti-zionist and anti-semite, yet I heard on the radio yesterday afternoon some num calling him a racist and anti-semite. This was from the jewish side, and just a couple of months ago he was attacked (verbally) by the Irish Islamic something or other for being anti-Islamic. Before that he was anti-Catholic, and even when he slagged off some vicars for being two-faced, anti-Protestant. Apparently you can't call into question people's behaviour or actions without offending some sort of interest group. And only yesterday I read (and now cannot find) about Irish travellers being made an ethnic group! Holy cow, I mean, come on! Surely the first ethnic group are Dubs, followed by Dulchies, followed by Culchies, and then the ethnic subgroups - Corkonians, Wicklowites etc. Just gets worse and worse!

[dahamsta]

Sometimes? Always. He's not a racist, or an anti-semite, he's quite simply a self-promoting troll.

[Spudulika]

Sometimes? Always. He's not a racist, or an anti-semite, he's quite simply a self-promoting troll.

Like I said he's a polemicist - in person he is a much different proposition to his columns and occasional tv jaunts. Of course he's self-promoting, same as almost any columnist or journalist, though he does have the ability to own up to mistakes. It's always a fine line between wanting to deck him and shake his hand!

[dahamsta]

I'd never shake Myers' hand. He's scum, simple as.