Sporting Fingal Gone Belly Up

[John83]

I think Spud's point is that Fingal's collapse hurts the league's reputation.

And your point is that Fingal's collapse is and always has been inevitable.

If we accept both as fact, the only logical conclusion is that Fingal should never have been allowed enter the league.

[Spudulika]

Pineapple, it's all interrelated, the club would have no bother (except increased jealousy and understandably so) had the mess that is NAMA not jumped into the equation. But every bad news situation, every attempt to move things ahead, every effort at public-private partnership in the LOI is facing problems before it sees the light of day. The Premiership bogeyman is a fallacy, in one sense, though it's convenient to continue using it - I do myself, however a strong league and organisation can move past it. The 2 lacking areas and small gates you mention are spot on, though they cannot be used as excuses or even reasons for the failure of the LOI to progress or clubs likewise. Of course there is no quick fix, only a concerted long term plan by individual clubs in the continued absence of strict regulatory controls from the FAI/LOI and how this works, it's beyond us all.

John, we've had the same written about UCD, Monaghan, Bray and other small budget/crowd clubs who supposedly add nothing to the league. Like the opening line of a very famous novel (paraphrased of course) "all successful clubs are successful, all LOI clubs are trainwrecks in their own individual painful ways." Unfair on some, however realism is always waiting to take a lump out of your calf.

[John83]

John, we've had the same written about UCD, Monaghan, Bray and other small budget/crowd clubs who supposedly add nothing to the league. Like the opening line of a very famous novel (paraphrased of course) "all successful clubs are successful, all LOI clubs are trainwrecks in their own individual painful ways." Unfair on some, however realism is always waiting to take a lump out of your calf.

Are you capable of framing an argument without attacking the other person's club?

[pineapple stu]

I think Spud's point is that Fingal's collapse hurts the league's reputation.

I don't think that's his whole point. Quotes like this -

No club in Ireland have income streams that are guaranteed (even Shamrock Rovers), no club anywhere for that matter as anything can happen.

...(on Fingal suddenly realising they've run out of cash very shortly after they'd been agreeing transfer fees for players), and this -

UCD will survive in some shape or form as the taxpayer and alumni will allow for good players interested in getting a qualification while picking up a few quid, while facilities in Belfield are also a good attraction (as well as good coaching). However other clubs will not be so lucky

...indicate that Spud considers Fingal's problems merely an extension of the league's current malaise, and so are problems which could affect any club, and Fingal are just unlucky to have been the one caught out this time. My point is that while the league does have problems, Fingal's specific problems are unique to them, and so the two sets of problems cannot be linked. Spud - any maybe I'm reading him wrong - seems to be glossing over any sort of demonstration of a link between the two, which is the point I'm trying to challenge.

If we accept both as fact, the only logical conclusion is that Fingal should never have been allowed enter the league.

This is a point which I don't think has been made before. Is Ireland unique in, say, western Europe with regards the ease of getting a new club into the top flight? Apply to join the A League - skip it if someone goes bust, as they often do - coast that if you've enough money, promotion from the First and voila. In other leagues you'd start much further down - a sixth or seventh level - for new clubs to start at. The breakaway Barry FC started in the Welsh seventh division, for example. The new Austria Salzburg started at the same level in Austria. AFC Wimbledon started at level nine. I know the Dutch league is a closed two-tier system, but there's stratified regional amateur leagues under that, and I imagine any new clubs in the top two sections would have to come from the top of the amateur leagues.

So a (relatively minor, in the greater scheme of things) problem with the LoI is the ability to parachute almost effortlessly into the top flight with a bit of money. Arguably, that encourages "chasing the dream" and attendant reckless spending, and arguably it's an avenue that should be shut off - by forming a proper pyramid. Given the relationship between the league and non-league, though, that's obviously easier said than done.

[Spudulika]

Are you capable of framing an argument without attacking the other person's club?

John, if you believe I am attacking the other person's club then you are extremely wrong. I mentioned a premise of why the club should be closed down - the same premise used against other clubs regardless of efforts on and off the field or their inherent value in the footballing structure. I hope this clarifies the point for you.

[Spudulika]

...indicate that Spud considers Fingal's problems merely an extension of the league's current malaise, and so are problems which could affect any club, and Fingal are just unlucky to have been the one caught out this time. My point is that while the league does have problems, Fingal's specific problems are unique to them, and so the two sets of problems cannot be linked. Spud - any maybe I'm reading him wrong - seems to be glossing over any sort of demonstration of a link between the two, which is the point I'm trying to challenge. - Pineapple, while I appreciate some effort on your behalf to challenge points or enlighten me, you do pick up the situation wrong. The model Sporting Fingal tried to create is not unique, it is similar and dissimilar to other clubs in Ireland. Not all of their problems are unique to them, they are in common in the league. Otherwise they would, having proved their success on the field and developing community projects in conjunction with the local council, investors would be lined up to come on board. However this is not the case for any club in Ireland - otherwise there would be a strong and vibrant league in Ireland. I haven't glossed over anything, I hope this is clearer now.


This is a point which I don't think has been made before. Is Ireland unique in, say, western Europe with regards the ease of getting a new club into the top flight? Apply to join the A League - skip it if someone goes bust, as they often do - coast that if you've enough money, promotion from the First and voila. In other leagues you'd start much further down - a sixth or seventh level - for new clubs to start at. The breakaway Barry FC started in the Welsh seventh division, for example. The new Austria Salzburg started at the same level in Austria. AFC Wimbledon started at level nine. I know the Dutch league is a closed two-tier system, but there's stratified regional amateur leagues under that, and I imagine any new clubs in the top two sections would have to come from the top of the amateur leagues. No, not quite, though this goes back to a vibrant discussion held on another thread regarding the lack of any proper structure/pyramid in Ireland to allow clubs move up or down and to enthuse investors, sponsors etc. In some leagues there is the chance for gaining the licences of a bankrupt or dissolving club, so long as the criteria are met. MK Dons showed that this can be done, Arsenal owe their place in the top flight due to machinations of this sort. In Eastern Europe clubs don't get parachuted in, though they can be reformed - FC Moscow were established fully to take over another clubs place in the top division, this year Krasnodar went up to take a place left by Saturn. Their place was taken by a club that went bang a couple of times and reformed in 3 different guises. It's business, pure and simple, unfortunately the only people who don't seem to get this are the supporters or fans.

So a (relatively minor, in the greater scheme of things) problem with the LoI is the ability to parachute almost effortlessly into the top flight with a bit of money. Arguably, that encourages "chasing the dream" and attendant reckless spending, and arguably it's an avenue that should be shut off - by forming a proper pyramid. Given the relationship between the league and non-league, though, that's obviously easier said than done.

I think I need to do a double check on this, but who were recently parachuted into the top flight of the LOI? I could google it but I'm lazy and trying to edit a project proposal, with difficulty. A pyramid is the only way forward, totally agree with you, without it football will never develop properly in Ireland. If Sporting Fingal end today, it will not be huge today (for those not associated with the club) - except those who love that sort of thing. If UCD go there will be tears but little else. What would happen - the best players will be immediately approached and the supporters left wondering what to do next. It's a proper little cockroach colony.

[pineapple stu]

If UCD go there will be tears but little else.

See, this is what John83 is pointing out - I don't see what relevance that sentence has to the entire rest of your post. Why put that in?

I also disagree with your assertion that the model Fingal tried to create is not unique; no other club is currently based on the whim of one person putting in millions to try and create a centre-piece for a major construction project.

I don't really care how many meetings you have with powers that be, or how many people in high places in however many countries you know, or how eloquently you relate those meetings/conversations/tidbits, I'm afraid I can't shake the underlying notion that you're a bluffer at heart.

(Also - the MK Dons thing is completely different to Sporting Fingal; seizure and relocation of an existing club - rightly decried - versus new entity parachuting in).

[Louth4sam]

Are you capable of framing an argument without attacking the other person's club?

I don't think he is. Always attacks Dundalk (the club he supposedly supports) when Dundalk fans make comments also.

[Spudulika]

See, this is what John83 is pointing out - I don't see what relevance that sentence has to the entire rest of your post. Why put that in?

I also disagree with your assertion that the model Fingal tried to create is not unique; no other club is currently based on the whim of one person putting in millions to try and create a centre-piece for a major construction project.

I don't really care how many meetings you have with powers that be, or how many people in high places in however many countries you know, or how eloquently you relate those meetings/conversations/tidbits, I'm afraid I can't shake the underlying notion that you're a bluffer at heart.

(Also - the MK Dons thing is completely different to Sporting Fingal; seizure and relocation of an existing club - rightly decried - versus new entity parachuting in).

If you don't see he relevance then you completely miss the point or are twisting it to avoid the truth that football and sport is simply business. It is not attacking other clubs, it is not defending any other clubs, it is pointing out how football is a business and how any club, Dundalk, Drogheda, UCD, Sporting Fingal, Shamrock Rovers can go under without other clubs worrying much beyond their own survival and getting whatever players they want without a transfer fee. I hope you can understand this as I cannot state it any clearer without breaking it down word by word.

You can disagree all you want with the assertion about Fingal, especially if you wish to narrowly confine the previous investor in the club being in construction, or worse stillt hat it was a whim or passing fancy. How about oil, metals, breweries etc? Now does the model retain any lack of uniqueness? Not at all. Many clubs have been established by a person whose business was limited to a certain sphere, some have survived, others have not. If you wish to purely pick holes in it for the sake of picking holes, then it would be best to extend the criteria so that other projects of a parallel aspect might remove the uniqueness of it all.

I care little for what you think of me, the same as how you care little for what I think of you. I certainly won't reduce myself to erroneous name calling or belittling others to score cheap points. Ironically your false assertion belies what you actually do know, so there's no point in labouring the point.

Louth4sam - always attacks Dundalk, not quite. I grew up supporting the club and still do, I feel that unfair or biased comments are just that no matter what the colour of the shirt, and you're being rather disingenuous with your post. However if you feel you must, then please do, though I don't think that wumming is a proper way to go, in all fairness.

[pineapple stu]

You can disagree all you want with the assertion about Fingal, especially if you wish to narrowly confine the previous investor in the club being in construction

Not my point at all. Massive difference between the club being bankrolled by someone involved in construction (e.g. Wexford) and a club being bankrolled by someone as a potential centre-piece for a proposed construction project (like Drogheda were until the project died, and like I suspect Fingal are). They're worlds apart. I think by casually - and subtly - changing entirely the premise of what I said, you undermine your own posts. Similarly, I'm afraid you've failed to enlighten me in your first paragraph, or to justify the random asides with which you pepper your posts.

[Spudulika]

Not my point at all. Massive difference between the club being bankrolled by someone involved in construction (e.g. Wexford) and a club being bankrolled by someone as a potential centre-piece for a proposed construction project (like Drogheda were until the project died, and like I suspect Fingal are). They're worlds apart. I think by casually - and subtly - changing entirely the premise of what I said, you undermine your own posts. Similarly, I'm afraid you've failed to enlighten me in your first paragraph, or to justify the random asides with which you pepper your posts.

Pineapple, while I believed you had the class to at least edit the insult you launched in your last post, I still hope you will as you know better, and having met you I still feel you're a bigger person to do so. No, I didn't change the premise of what you said, you were specific to a construction person/company who were doing things for their own ends. However this model has it's parallels in the investments made by other "wealthy" backers that later turn out to be rather difficult.

While again you are using insulting terms and manner to say I did not clarify how I was not attacking other clubs for the sake of it, I simply pointed out that football and sports is a business, clubs look after their own selfish interest and those with less foresight or interest in the game would solely focus on "big" clubs at the expense of those who have smaller attendances or support base. However as I am sure you yourself would agree with, crowd size is not a reason to put a club under (which was stated elsewhere in this and other threads). I hope this has given greater clarity.

If not I would politely ask you to cease the insulting language and remarks and just drop a private message which at least would be more proper and mature.

[osarusan]

no other club is currently based on the whim of one person putting in millions to try and create a centre-piece for a major construction project.

This is no more than a rumour though, isn't it?

[Dodge]

This is no more than a rumour though, isn't it?

A strong enough rumour.

BTW I'd argue Drogheda were in the same situation. And look whats happening them

[Spudulika]

As a matter of interest, did any other clubs in Ireland get hit by a "construction project" that went awry? Okay, agree with Dodge, a strong rumour on Sporting Fingal, Drogheda, Bohemians and Shels. Nobody else was caught though, right? (not a wu, just a serious question).

[pineapple stu]

having met you

Do tell, by the way. PM, as you say, will do. Your manner suggests one person in particular to me, and trust me, you do not want to be that one person!

[Spudulika]

Do tell, by the way. PM, as you say, will do. Your manner suggests one person in particular to me, and trust me, you do not want to be that one person!

Pineapple - we've met, you know me, I'm not that bad - don't worry, I won't be dropping plutonium in your tea or anything :-) Check your old PM's, in relation to a goalkeeper. Ring a bell?

[pineapple stu]

That PM, as I recall - I delete old PMs - only confirmed that you were aware of something within the club which I understood only three people knew. It's why I haven't completely dismissed you as loony quite yet! I don't think it gave any further clues as to your exact identity though.

[Buile Shuibhne]

Hearing there was a FAI/League meeting yesterday evening in the Berkely Court Hotel ( might be called something else now?) and that Fingal, Bohs & Drogs were absent????????


Anyone know anything about this?

[Dodge]

A rumour (posted by a non bull****ter) on the Pats forum that a statement will be made today regaridng Fingal's future (and it won't be good)

[SkStu]

you pepper your posts.

alliteration wins my vote.