Sporting Fingal Gone Belly Up

[SkStu]

Back to topic. I feel for the Fingal projects demise. A few guys took a risk and unfortunately it didn't work. Hopefully they (Fingal FC) can continue on and find their proper level.
If there is one thing is the loi mantra of "I told you so". Like ffs when are we going to all stand beside one another and support each other through the good times and bad.

we wont. Not for a while anyway. We're just a microcosm of the attitude of the clubs themselves who are out for themselves and themselves only.

[Poor Student]

UCD before the 1970's etc ?

UCD won the IFA intermediate cup in 1914, the FAI intermediate cup in 1945, were invited to join the original LOI and participated in the LOI senior cup in the 30's and 50's.

I don't think any UCD or Mons fans criticised Fingal's crowds. We do question how they can sustain the level of spending they've become accustomed to without a fanbase to generate revenue to replace Gannon's donations.

[ndrog]

i'd say you where itching to get that in. Realistically though there are only 3 big clubs in Ireland. And they are Rovers, Bohs and Dundalk. Even though LOI is a minority sport ask any man on the street they will tell you who they are. With the possible exception of Derry, the rest don't even surface. Cork have too many previous entities that my oul man still says Hibs because he couldn't be bothered with the other. The bigness of a club is built over an large space of time and takes in the highs and lows. the good press with the bad and being able to rise above and struggle for survival every year.

Back to topic. I feel for the Fingal projects demise. A few guys took a risk and unfortunately it didn't work. Hopefully they (Fingal FC) can continue on and find their proper level.
If there is one thing is the loi mantra of "I told you so". Like ffs when are we going to all stand beside one another and support each other through the good times and bad.

You can take it as some sort of personal dig at dfc if you like , it wasnt by the way . I was using you as an example as to how there are no big clubs in the loi imo . How do you judge who is a big club and who is not ? There are clubs who have consistently been in the top flight etc and have always been challenging for trophies but even some of these clubs get very poor crowds , St pats for example . Waterford where thought to be a big club once upon a time ! Sorry for going off topic ..

[White Horse]

I was using you as an example as to how there are no big clubs in the loi imo.

I see where you are coming from. In absolute terms there are no "big clubs". However, in the context of the LOI some clubs are "bigger" than others.

It is normal for fans to debate who those cubs are.

[passerrby]

... never did understand the depth of anti Fingal feeling on here and still not convinced. Is it

(a) because they forced up playing wages ? biggest wage bill I am aware of was St Pats in Johnny Mac's last season, never caused a comment on foot.ie so it aint a wages inflation issue

(b) Most/all money from one source and that a dreaded developer. Again same could (but never is) be said about St Pats so cant be the reason

(c) Low crowds. Really ? UCD and Mons posters criticising crowds ?

(d) Spending money they dont have. Never seen any evidence this is the case. Would expect new club to need to run a manageable loss in the hope of recouping it when they become established. No doubt will now have to radically reduce expenditure but it can be done (St Pats proved it) so why cant Sporting Fingal ?

you are p

(e) No club history. Ah, thats why Shels and Bohs (two oldest clubs in LOI) have been so immune from stick on this forum .

(f) new club that had the audacity to be successfull so early in its life ? Always amazed me how the same fans that bleat on about lack of investment in LOI moan about Fingal attracting, well, investment. St Pats near 3 million wage bill OK but Fingals wage bill not ? Perhaps because St pats won nothing that season ?

As for the "bad publicity for the for the LOI" nonsence, What bad publicity have they generated ?

as usual mar you chose to mis read what someone has posted my problem is that a football club was parachuted into the loi without any underpinning structures by a person or persons with no interest in the LOI and only motive was to build a property portfolio in fingal.
now i know its hard for you to acknowlege overspending by a club without building from the vbottom up but thats what happened here but then expecting a bohs fan for sound fundamentals in running a club was asking to much.

[peadar1987]

Realistically though there are only 3 big clubs in Ireland. And they are Rovers, Bohs and Dundalk. Even though LOI is a minority sport ask any man on the street they will tell you who they are.

I think on history and crowds, both Sligo and Derry have a legitimate claim to be considered big clubs.

[White Horse]

I think on history and crowds, both Sligo and Derry have a legitimate claim to be considered big clubs.

Sligo have won only two titles with the last being over 30 plus years ago.

Derry are still new boys in the league.

[Charlie Darwin]

UCD won the IFA intermediate cup in 1914, the FAI intermediate cup in 1945, were invited to join the original LOI and participated in the LOI senior cup in the 30's and 50's.

I don't think any UCD or Mons fans criticised Fingal's crowds. We do question how they can sustain the level of spending they've become accustomed to without a fanbase to generate revenue to replace Gannon's donations.

But nobody's suggested they can sustain the level of spending they've become accustomed to - you're questioning a position that nobody has put forward to begin with.

It's fine to have objections to Fingal and to perceive them to be "skipping the queue" or whatever, but the one thing that can be said of them is that they've operated more or less within the means that have been allocated to them. They could easily have pushed the boat out further and paid over the odds for every player but the people running the club do seem to have stuck to a model that can adapt to the withdrawal of funding. Pat's famously didn't do this and their fans are paying for it now, while Bohs and Drogs fans are paying for their clubs' excessive borrowing against imagined future revenue.

Any football fan can see that Fingal's business model to date has been a quick fix, and it's unfair on those clubs that they've leaped over, but the level of animosity the club invokes in some LOI fans (not you) amazes me sometimes.

[srfc1928]

I think on history and crowds, both Sligo and Derry have a legitimate claim to be considered big clubs.

Sligo have won only two titles with the last being over 30 plus years ago.

Derry are still new boys in the league.

By reading peaders post he never mentioned success as his criteria for his qualification of being a 'big club'
Im not sure we are considered a big club in LOI terms but our real success is to survive for over 80 years in a town with less than 20.000 people,
a complete outpost for football.
We've always paid our bills and 80% of the time have always drawn decent crowds despite our lack of sucess in terms of silverware.
Also, imo derry are a big club.

[bullit]

This thread is rapidly becoming the "Why your club is fcuking just the besht ever,and should be up with there with the immortals of loi" thread.
Also,i love derry to. so good they named it twice!!

[SkStu]

But nobody's suggested they can sustain the level of spending they've become accustomed to - you're questioning a position that nobody has put forward to begin with.

It's fine to have objections to Fingal and to perceive them to be "skipping the queue" or whatever, but the one thing that can be said of them is that they've operated more or less within the means that have been allocated to them. They could easily have pushed the boat out further and paid over the odds for every player but the people running the club do seem to have stuck to a model that can adapt to the withdrawal of funding. Pat's famously didn't do this and their fans are paying for it now, while Bohs and Drogs fans are paying for their clubs' excessive borrowing against imagined future revenue.

Any football fan can see that Fingal's business model to date has been a quick fix, and it's unfair on those clubs that they've leaped over, but the level of animosity the club invokes in some LOI fans (not you) amazes me sometimes.

this is a good post Charlie.

[Dodge]

They could easily have pushed the boat out further and paid over the odds for every player but the people running the club do seem to have stuck to a model that can adapt to the withdrawal of funding. Pat's famously didn't do this and their fans are paying for it now

Pats have been under budget every year since Dolan left. That the budget was wasted ins't the point. The money was allocated, and spent. Don't see how you can say Pats fans are paying for it now.

[sullanefc]

No county council or public body should ever be running a football club for the conflict of interest as outlined above. Sporting Fingal are receiving money they would not ever receive if they were a regular newly formed football club, this is putting all other clubs at a financial disadvantage and is not providing a level playing field. I can guarantee you Sporting Fingal aren't going to have much bother finding a replacement 'investor' for Gannon.

UCD is a public body. Should they not be allowed in the league as well? What is the problem with being owned by a county council anyway? You say it is not providing a level playing field. Surely no two football clubs operate on a financially level playing field? Sure look at Man City in the EPL getting Arab oil money to fund them. Look at Bohs drawing down money from the sale of Dalymount to fund the playing staff. That is a financial disadvantage to clubs who don't own a football ground in a prime location.

The only way you create a financial level playing field is if every team has the exact same budget. And thats hardly fair if one team creates far more revenue than another team.

Hint: Football is rarely fair. Get over it.

When Sporting Fingal was set up Fingal CoCo were saying that the main reason for forming the club was due to a high demand for LOI football in the area which has instantly proven to be codswallop. Nobody expects new clubs to instantly pick up large crowds but when an new entity comes in splashing the cash trying to buy trophies and trips to Europe while making wild claims that there is such a large demand for their formation is perfectly understandable for LOI fans to be asking what is the f-ing point.

Did the Fingal CoCo say there was a "high" demand for LOI football in the area? Surely there is no area in Ireland that has a "high" demand for LOI football. But maybe there was a "low/average" demand. Why not set up a football club? There are no other LOI clubs in the area so why not? Maybe they can grow there fan base over time and win over the locals? How do they win over the locals? By being successful. And how do they do that ... etc etc.

I think the bit in bold in the quoted post is what is bothering most of the naysayers here. Football fans are jealous of Sporting Fingal, and that's the bottom line. Many of the reasons for bad mouthing Sporting Fingal could be applied to many other clubs. Mervue and Salthill are two new clubs in the league in an area that already has a LOI club, why not dis them? Because they haven't spent money? They are not a threat to your club so you don't criticise them? Sporting Fingal have spent their way to an FAI cup and Europe and have passed out other clubs. Fans of these other clubs are just jealous.

[sullanefc]

Derry are still new boys in the league.

So if Manchester United were to join the LOI, they would not be considered a big club because they were "new boys in the league"?

[Dodge]

Mervue and Salthill are two new clubs in the league in an area that already has a LOI club, why not dis them?

Because both are long established clubs who have climbed the ladder? And even then there are plenty of discussions here (and elsewhere) about the merits of their LOI ambitions

Personally I'm ambivelent enough about them. I liked some of the work they put in around the community there and they were far more active than msot in this area. I've a lot of time for Liam Buckley too

On the other hand it does seem like a bit of an ego trip for some people and the move to Dalymount doesn't reflect their "for Fingal people" ethos.

I also have a huge problem with some within Fingal County council and their push for independence. I see the football club as a part of this.

I also have a huge problem with some here seemingly forgetting that we're in a competive sport. The idea that we simply have to support all clubs and wish them all well is completely bizarre. So what if someone dislikes a club because they signed good players?

[sullanefc]

Because both are long established clubs who have climbed the ladder? And even then there are plenty of discussions here (and elsewhere) about the merits of their LOI ambitions

I don't see being "long established" as being a reason to like/dislike a club.

Personally I'm ambivelent enough about them. I liked some of the work they put in around the community there and they were far more active than msot in this area. I've a lot of time for Liam Buckley too

On the other hand it does seem like a bit of an ego trip for some people and the move to Dalymount doesn't reflect their "for Fingal people" ethos.

I also have a huge problem with some within Fingal County council and their push for independence. I see the football club as a part of this.

This is all inter-Dublin politics. Something I wouldn't really care about being from Cork, but other fans from outside the pale still take issue with them.

I also have a huge problem with some here seemingly forgetting that we're in a competive sport. The idea that we simply have to support all clubs and wish them all well is completely bizarre. So what if someone dislikes a club because they signed good players?

This is a proper and the real reason for disliking them IMO. Fair play to you for being honest enough to say it.

[pineapple stu]

UCD is a public body.

UCD isn't in the league. UCD AFC is. And the club isn't a public body. Nobody owns it.

It's fine to have objections to Fingal and to perceive them to be "skipping the queue" or whatever, but the one thing that can be said of them is that they've operated more or less within the means that have been allocated to them. They could easily have pushed the boat out further and paid over the odds for every player but the people running the club do seem to have stuck to a model that can adapt to the withdrawal of funding. Pat's famously didn't do this and their fans are paying for it now, while Bohs and Drogs fans are paying for their clubs' excessive borrowing against imagined future revenue.

I don't really agree with this. Firstly, Kelleher put his money where his mouth was in fairness, and when he pulled out (as he more or less seems to have done), Pat's could cope precisely because they hadn't borrowed against imagined future revenue. I'm not sure how you can put Pat's in the same group as Bohs and Drogs (or Cork or Derry or Dublin City). Secondly, Fingal made a E75k loss in 2009 despite winning the Cup; it's debatable as to whether that constitues operating within the means allocated to them. For any LoI club, that's a big loss. We don't know how they fared in 2010. Thirdly, I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever (either way) that SFFC can adapt to the withdrawal of funding. All that's tangibly happened so far is that several players have left and no-one's joined. That could point either way (all players are leaving, or maybe they're just getting rid of some players to replace them with u-20s), but it certainly can't point definitively to them being stable or unstable.

Also, this -

I also have a huge problem with some here seemingly forgetting that we're in a competive sport. The idea that we simply have to support all clubs and wish them all well is completely bizarre. So what if someone dislikes a club because they signed good players?

[Dodge]

I don't see being "long established" as being a reason to like/dislike a club.

It doesn't matter what you think. It is absolutely a reason why some dislike Fingal. Count how many times the word Franchise is used

This is all inter-Dublin politics. Something I wouldn't really care about being from Cork, but other fans from outside the pale still take issue with them.

Again, it doesn't matter what you think, its just another reason why some dislike them

This is a proper and the real reason for disliking them IMO. Fair play to you for being honest enough to say it.

To be clear, I don't dislike Fingal (as explained above) and I couldn't dislike a team simply because they had better players.

[Charlie Darwin]

Pats have been under budget every year since Dolan left. That the budget was wasted ins't the point. The money was allocated, and spent. Don't see how you can say Pats fans are paying for it now.

I must have the wrong end of the stick - I was under the impression Pat's had up to a million in debt - I must have been thinking of a budget deficit. If Kelleher paid that out of his own pocket then fair play, it's the same as Fingal and Pat's have shown the foresight ability to slim down considerably.

I don't really agree with this. Firstly, Kelleher put his money where his mouth was in fairness, and when he pulled out (as he more or less seems to have done), Pat's could cope precisely because they hadn't borrowed against imagined future revenue. I'm not sure how you can put Pat's in the same group as Bohs and Drogs (or Cork or Derry or Dublin City). Secondly, Fingal made a E75k loss in 2009 despite winning the Cup; it's debatable as to whether that constitues operating within the means allocated to them. For any LoI club, that's a big loss. We don't know how they fared in 2010. Thirdly, I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever (either way) that SFFC can adapt to the withdrawal of funding. All that's tangibly happened so far is that several players have left and no-one's joined. That could point either way (all players are leaving, or maybe they're just getting rid of some players to replace them with u-20s), but it certainly can't point definitively to them being stable or unstable.

Well I can't say for sure since I don't know the ins and outs, but they were able to release a lot of players this year, presumably at little or no cost, and have hung onto the ones who have theoretical cash value. I know the club organised jobs in sports development for a couple of the players instead of offering them full-time contracts, so they do seem to have at least had a contingency in place for the withdrawal of funding. Again, compare it to Bohs who can't get rid of any of their high earners.

At the same time, I do know of players who turned down contract with Fingal in the first division because they were only offering full-time.

[avvenalaf]

So if Manchester United were to join the LOI, they would not be considered a big club because they were "new boys in the league"?

They could play all their home games in Dublin - they have more supporters there than they have in Manchester.