Player eligibility row

[Acornvilla]

does anyone have a direct link and quote saying that players from the north have the right to play for the south now

and/or the cas verdict, i'm sure its in here somewhere but I've only really been keeping half an eye on this thread now so unsure :S

thanks in advance if anyone can help

[DannyInvincible]

does anyone have a direct link and quote saying that players from the north have the right to play for the south now

They've always had the right prior to the CAS case; not just "now". Article 15 (on page 67) of the FIFA statutes makes things pretty clear: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...uten2009_e.pdf

"15: Principle
1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country."

and/or the cas verdict, i'm sure its in here somewhere but I've only really been keeping half an eye on this thread now so unsure :S

This right was affirmed in the form of a dismissal by CAS of the IFA's appeal on the 30th of July: http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenera...0-1092-15-1-1/

"The CAS Panel dismissed the appeal and confirmed the decision issued by the Single Judge of the FIFA Players’ Status Committee, which recognized that Daniel Kearns was eligible to play for the national team of the FAI."

Daniel Kearns was what you'd call a "test case", so essentially it was just (re-)confirmation that all players in his circumstances were similarly eligible to play for us.

CAS have yet to publish the full grounds for the decision, however. I e-mailed them the other night asking for further information on when the grounds might be published if possible and received the following reply this afternoon:

"Dear Sir,

Thank you for your message and for your interest in the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

The reasoned award will be notified to the parties in the coming weeks. Until such time, the CAS is unable to comment any further on the matter.

Yours sincerely,

CAS secretariat"

Bit of a change from their original statement claiming they'd publish the details of the verdict within a few days and it still leaves it all rather open-ended, but what can you do?

[Acornvilla]

i know they always had the right sorry if i was unclear on that i just anted to have a look at all the info without trawling thru all the bs in here thanks

[ArdeeBhoy]

McCourt was first capped by Northern Ireland in 2002 before his spells with Shamrock Rovers and Derry City and whilst playing with Rochdale. Maybe he had no interest in playing for us or fancied his chances with them more; who knows?

My pal (ex-Doire) claims McCourt was interested but no approach was made in his earlier career before he played for the North. Then his career went into hibernation for around 5 years, by which case he'd almost fallen off the radar even for them.
No idea re.McGinn, but perhaps now both would have the confidence to put themself up before the FAI scouts before deciding which way to go with the first competitive cap etc.

Doubtless there will be more pioneers who will have 'swung both ways', before hopefully coming over to us, if they're any good?

[OneRedArmy]

McGinn played Gaa in South Tyrone (possibly on the Minor panel iirc?) so he's a more surprising one than McCourt. ON McCourt, like it or not, players from Derry have a strong previous history of declaring for the North even in relatively recent times (i.e. last few decades), Felix Healy, Liam Coyle, David Campbell etc.

[ifk101]

We need to remember that NI born players need to contact the FAI about their availability to play for us. The FAI has "agreed" with the IFA not to make the first approach with regards to NI born players. It's up to the individual player to weigh up his options but perhaps it should be made clearer for NI born players that they do need to make the first move rather than waiting for the FAI to contact them.

[paul_oshea]

I wouldn't be that naive IFK101, im sure the FAI are aware of the better players in the North and indirectly make the overtures.

[ifk101]

Yes they are well aware of up and coming NI born players. Individual fans are quite quick to let the FAI know about them. But remember there was a lot of whinging here about why the FAI wasn't active in pursuing Shane Duffy. Indeed an email posted here from Sean McCaffrey stated that it was up to Shane Duffy to contact the FAI and make his availability known to them directly if he wanted to represent us.

[paul_oshea]

Thats not really what I am saying.

[ifk101]

You're saying that indirect approaches exist because you assume it's naive to believe otherwise. But why would the FAI go to the hassle of indirectly approaching players when NI born players are eligible to play for us regardless? They don't need to go behind anyone's back here - if they made/ make direct approaches to said players they're acting within their rights to do so. Bit of a pointless exercise to make indirect overtures, no?

[paul_oshea]

YOu just said above that they dont do teh first approach though?

[geysir]

He is an unassuming chap, unlike you Paul
He is merely offering a case as a contrast to what you regard as a fact, based on your assumption.

Direct/indirect approach or none, it does not matter, players are dual nationals de jure, living in a dual national statelet and fully entitled to declare for the FAI.

[irishfan86]

I say rip up the "gentlemen's agreement."

It does nothing to help us and may lead to some eligible players who want to play for us missing out due to confusion. My philosophy is that we should approach every eligible player we feel can help us.

[OneRedArmy]

By its nature a gentleman's agreement can't be ripped up!

I'd say its pretty much dead in the water anyway, but like any situation, the "indirect" route allows the FAI not to be seen to be overtly competing for players (which it clearly is).

[paul_oshea]

He is an unassuming chap, unlike you Paul
He is merely offering a case as a contrast to what you regard as a fact, based on your assumption.

Direct/indirect approach or none, it does not matter, players are dual nationals de jure, living in a dual national statelet and fully entitled to declare for the FAI.

Perhaps, but to me his first and 3rd posts seemed to contradict somewhat.

Though i never stated fact, but perhaps naive to believe that they automatically don't extend overtures to said players.

I was merely pointing out what ORA has explained in his second sentence above.

[geysir]

There is no gentleman's agreement existing at present, (for what it was) it ran its course. It could not adjust to the changing social and political landscape in the late 90's. Dual nationality became enshrined in what passes for a constitution in the North, it followed that some changes happened in social and political attitudes.

I think young players have enough cop to make their own approaches to the available FAI person.
This is not club football. There is no ownership of a player, there is no contract. Dual nationals are free agents until they get their first competitive cap. In any future possible agreement that might arise, the FAI hold all the aces and will not cede the basic principles outlined in the FIFA articles..

[backstothewall]

As the heat goes off this perhaps now is the time to start to think about the future of youth development, and increased co-operation between the FAI and IFA. I mean every club in the English league has an academy attached to it, so they're talented kids have a chance to get professional training on their doorsteps, while our talented teenagers are uprooted to England before most have started shaving. It has to make it harder for our kids to succeed without the support of their family at home.

Some parents are in a position to go across to let their children follow their dreams, such as the Evans' brothers parents, but obviously its not every family that can do this. George Best, having previously been rejected by Glentoran, jumped on the boat home after less than a week at Old Trafford, and had to be persuaded to go back. He did go back, but how many other Best's have got the boat home from Liverpool and never went back? One of our all time greats could well be making his sandwiches for work on the building site in the morning as I write this.

If the 2 FAs were to co-operate, instead of throwing mud at each other, there is no reason why we couldn't have such facilities here to the benefit of everyone. The transfer fees for 2 or 3 19 year old rough diamonds a season going across the water would go a long way towards financing it. Perhaps a deal could be struck with the English or Scots for our academy(s) to enter one of their Youth Cups (I'm sure the 5 or 6 Scottish teams capable of running a decent youth system would welcome the competition).

It would also be a great place for our ex-pros to get coaching experience, get their UEFA badges etc. If we could agree to field an all Ireland side in UEFA/FIFA underage competitions, it would cut costs for both associations, give us a better chance of qualifying for finals, and all without cutting down on international trips for the blazers, annoying anyone in the north, or forcing teenagers into the position where they have to nail their political colours to the mast in public with all the grace of a bulldog marking a lamp-post. Especially considering most of them probably don't really understand the politics or history of the issue and would much prefer to play football.

[ifk101]

There is no gentleman's agreement existing at present, (for what it was) it ran its course. It could not adjust to the changing social and political landscape in the late 90's. Dual nationality became enshrined in what passes for a constitution in the North, it followed that some changes happened in social and political attitudes.

There is a Gentleman's Agreement in existence, agreed in 1999 (although recent IFA actions can be perceived to have dishonoured the agreement, and thus breaking it). It's been assumed that there existed a Gentleman's Agreement from the 1950's but this was never the case.

[Charlie Darwin]

Here's an interesting one.

On MOTD tonight, they were discussing whether it would be a good idea to call up Mikel Arteta for England (Lawro the hypocrite said it "just wouldn't be right"). I lookedup Charles N'Zogbia for the same on wikipedia, and it states (unsourced) that N'Zogbia is in fact ineligible for England as he didn't have English nationality when he represented France at U21 level. If true, this would also rule out Arteta.

Article 18 states:

Article 18

1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:

(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

Like most of the FIFA statutes, it's not very clearly written, but it seems to suggest that in order for a player to change nationalities, he has to have had permanent nationality of his adopted country at the time he played in a competitive underage international for his original country. This would rule out Arteta and N'Zogbia, but not Almunia.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But who would want Almunia???