Never mind more complex reasoning, you appear to struggle with even the simplest concept.
So I will type this once again, only very slowly: I do not want to see a United Kingdom team, just as I do not want to see a United Ireland team. Instead, I prefer to see a Northern Ireland team, comprising of players who have either been born in NI or have at least one parent/grandparent born within NI. Plus Maik Taylor. That is why I call myself a Northern Ireland fan.
Clear?
Because there is no "rule" that you have to be a political entity to be a member association of FIFA. Duh!
For instance, Macao is no longer a "political entity", yet the Macao FA is still a Member Association of FIFA.
Whereas Palestine is not (yet, at least) a political entity, yet there is a Palestinian FA.
And Monaco is a political entity, with a Membership of FIFA, but no international football team.
Therefore, FIFA and FIFA alone determines what constitutes "Footballing Nationality" (my shorthand), as demonstrated by Associate Membership.
And one of the benefits of Membership is that each Member Association is entitled to be treated equally with all the others, regardless of how big or small etc they may be.
Except that when it comes to Ireland (island), FIFA is not treating its two Irish Member Associations equally over the question of Eligibility (imo).
Last edited by EalingGreen; 29/07/2010 at 11:44 PM.
You are wrong about Monaco (even though it is a Principality). They are seeking membership. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaco_..._football_team
And Macao (& Hong Kong) were political entities and why they have held onto their membership. If they were seeking membership now, they wouldn't get it.
So you're right and the majority are all wrong now....
Why? Do you think that Britain (as with select others) should have held on to the rest of its illegal empire just because of a whim of some of the settlers who colonized it, wanted to govern a particular native population, based on their own dubious (& extremely paranoid) values??
Except as Janeymac says below (& far more importantly the local media most recently), the vast majority of unionists in the North, the whole reason the region even exists, see themselves as British!
Absolutely nothing to do with where they reside.
Well hardly, as various others have far more eloquently put, your 'arguments', especially around eligibility are riddled with flaws and contradictions, so it's doubtful anyone half-wise would take you remotely seriously!
More a source of enquiring bemusment.
This being the umpteenth example. Of something it has, does and will, regardless of your simplistic world view, even in a footballing context (see below).However, whatever one feels on the vexed political questions of "nationality" and "identity" etc, I genuinely feel it is (or should be, at any rate) entirely irrelevant to the debate over footballing eligibility.
The GFA specifically includes: "Recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
Congratulations on finally acknowledging the GFA though.
Ah sure this and last week's poll are far less representative than a few fools on a MB!
So you know better than the GFA now??
Estonia have a team, so do Palestine and Kosovo whilst rejected by FIFA this week, unless they join with Albania, will have to be acknowledged eventually.However, I simply do not see why someone from eg Derry should be permitted an alternative "choice" on account of their politics, whereas someone from eg Bilbao, Tallinn, East Jerusalem or Pristina etc is not.
What's your point otherwise?
That's as maybe, but sounds a bit like some of your 'underage' teams;Who're the 'beggars' now??You see, if I followed your principle in allowing my politics to inform my footballing allegiance, then my equivalent would be to try to take pride in watching lads from Cardiff, Edinburgh, London and Belfast representing me on the world stage and as I've said before on this site, a United Kingdom team holds no greater attraction to me than a United Ireland team.
I know who the Hypocrites are!
You are, if you insist Irish people can't play for Ireland......And we're the "bigots" in all this...
See GFA for guidance?
As for the post about who you support, so what? We know that. It's about what it represents.
Every fan of the North's team can say they're Irish until they're green (or would they prefer 'red-white-and-blue'?) in the face, but even if it was always 11 men from the Ardoyne or Crossmaglen, the people they represent overall see themselves as British as confirmed by numerous other measures, no matter how some of the North's fans protest otherwise.
Hence regardless of what the CAS say, the urge for nationalists or liberal-minded people in the North to represent Ireland will get stronger??
Who could blame them?
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 30/07/2010 at 7:52 AM.
The 208 member associations are all equally subject to the same rules; in the case of the rules regarding national team eligibility, the rules are applied equally, according to the criteria - the defining criterion being nationality, which, of course, varies from country to country.
American Samoa and US Virgin Islands, for example, are member associations and not countries*. In order to play for them, one needs to be of American nationality and also satisfy article 16, since this nationality allows one to represent more than one association. There is no American Samoan or US Virgin Islands nationality of course - the same could be said of the four British associations, but it is clear that FIFA has established eligibility for associations subject to nationality (article 15) and articles 16 and 17. I suppose you could then call this subsequent eligibility, 'football nationality'.
*The statutes concerning association admission read:
1. Any Association which is responsible for organising and supervising football
in its country may become a Member of FIFA. In this context, the expression
“country” shall refer to an independent state recognised by the international
community. Subject to par. 5 [the allowance of four British teams] and par. 6**below, only one Association shall be
recognised in each country.
**Par. 6 indicates that,
An Association in a region which has not yet gained independence may,
with the authorisation of the Association in the country on which it is
dependent, also apply for admission to FIFA.
(Ah, the joys of 'copy' and 'paste'. See my OWC post)
Seriously? Governments' definition of nationality along with certain criteria is exactly what FIFA use to decide eligibility. However, comparing the situation to the Qatari example is silly. You make it seem like the Irish Government acted in a shady, cynical manner, in conjunction with the FAI in order to benefit the country's football teams.
Sure we'll see if that contention takes off.
These players should be entitled to represent the QFA, so long as they satisfy the eligibility criteria (article 17 in this case).
I detect circular movements and pedantry on the horizon.
Interesting suggestion. You want FIFA to define its own brand of nationality which is purely a football construct, yet you still want political nationality to play a part. So, if a player is born in the territory of the IFA, what should the appropriate political nationality be?
Obviously I don't question the 'Irishness' of the players in question, but I do feel that in representing the IFA (one of 'the four British associations', as stipulated by FIFA) one is exercising British nationality. Hardly a prejudiced and intolerant view.
Admire Johnson all you want. He's not a bad player. However, to actively partake in the defamation of two players (and many more) who have made a choice based on personal preference (which may not necessarily be politically charged), is quite simply, petty and definitely reeks of bitterness EG. I suppose that's your prerogative, but all I would say is "take yer oil", it's their choice and theirs alone.
Even if you don't like their choice, you have to respect their choice. How can you say you accept it, but then proceed to whinge about it?
Last edited by Predator; 30/07/2010 at 12:33 AM.
Well of course certain parties on here are now discovering their 'Irishness', despite the unionist community which the North's team represents, feeling in the main British.
So excuse me if I criticise the latter and all the attendant and paranoid control freakery about everything else different from them, within their pathetic jurisdiction.
Despite all their fans now being, apparently, 'Irish'.
Though on the next 12th, you'd better include the S.Beal-feirste N of ISC on the next bonfire, complete with its St.George's Cross bunting and picture of an old 'German' lady!
"Never mind more complex reasoning", indeed.
And I would quite happily ask all the players mentioned if they were happy representing some of the people they were obliged to represent?
And if they would do the same now, or do as Messrs. Best, Dougan & Jennings did in calling for a UI team? I doubt they would just bite their tongue now.
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 30/07/2010 at 7:50 AM.
Quite clearly you are because you are intolerant of those who differ to your understanding/ opinion/ viewpoint/ identity. For example, you suggest a "solution"?
..... which of course is followed by a snide remark aimed at those who dare to disagree.
You then preceed to belittle the identity of your neighbour, and not for the first time.
... and again
.... we're not all Catholics just so you know. And we don't all share the same political stance. That we hold in common is identification with the Irish nation. Anyways back to more intolerance aimed at those exercising their right to chose a different path to yours ....
... and yet more intolerance (termed respect here) towards those exercising their right to choose.
And before you vomit out more of your vile, why don't you do us all a favour and read the eligibility statutes instead of using your spin on them to belittle the identity of others.
Er, no. I haven't denied anything to anyone.Originally Posted by Janey Mac
Janey, according to those figures, 20% of Protestants and 23% of Catholics identify themselves primarily as neither British nor Irish. What are they? Hungarian? Some mix of both British and Irish? Invaders from the planet Tharg? You decide.Conversely, a majority of Catholics (65%) regard themselves as Irish, whilst very few Protestants (5%) do likewise" and that "In Northern Ireland, very few respondents identify themselves as both British and Irish"
As I've mentioned repeatedly, pretty much 100% of unionists in Northern Ireland accept and use the name Northern Ireland. By obvious association, both it and they are Irish. Whatever the clearly loaded questions in your opinion survey. Which- again as I've mentioned repeatedly- is typical in only offering a very limited choice of answers.
I'm quite happy defending a minority of one generally, by the way.
My apologies, no offence attended to you him nor anyone else. I just think gaelicising your name looks a bit funny, that's all. It doesn't shock (or interest) me in the least what some bloke in the House of Lords is called. My only interest in it is when it'll be abolished.In an earlier post you had a little dig at Garech de Brun really being Gary Browne...I suppose it would shock you to know that the current Lord Rosse (whose half brother married the Queen's sister) is actually called Brendan (Brendan was an Irish saint!)
Perhaps you should read what others post before wading in with irrelevant anecdotes about your mates from the aritstocracy. I described as restrictive only any notion of Irishness that er, denies me 100% Irishness.Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit about how British people / those with British heritage have fitted into the 'Irish' nation without proclaiming how restrictive our notion of 'irishness' is
It's quite logical for a unionist from Northern Ireland to see the Republic of Ireland as foreign, surely? They're two separate countries, both equally Irish.Originally Posted by Dan the Man
I think Northern Ireland should remain part of Britain because that's what the majority British people there want, as demonstrated in every election for 90 years. Whether or not some event 400 years ago was legal, whimsical or paranoid is of lesser historical interest, I reckon.Do you think that Britain (as with select others) should have held on to the rest of its illegal empire just because of a whim of some of the settlers who colonized it, wanted to govern a particular native population, based on their own dubious (& extremely paranoid) values??
Not long to wait now.
http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenera...0-1092-15-1-1/
You have. That unionists consistently see themselves as as, er, British. To repeat, the clue is in the phrase 'unionist'.
Confused? It still doesn't explain the other 80% or so.Janey, according to those figures, 20% of Protestants and 23% of Catholics identify themselves primarily as neither British nor Irish. What are they?
As I've mentioned repeatedly, pretty much 100% of unionists in Northern Ireland accept and use the name Northern Ireland. By obvious association, both it and they are Irish. Whatever the clearly loaded questions in your opinion survey. Which- again as I've mentioned repeatedly- is typical in only offering a very limited choice of answers.
But only a miniscule percentage of unionists would reject the collective identity/views of their peers.
As for the questions being 'loaded', paranoia besides, clearly 80% of respondents had no problems answering, which you'd know if you knew the slightest thing about the matter in hand.
You need to lay off the pomposity and perhaps get out more. You could even ask your fellow unionists how 'Irish' they are today.....
Except,as quoted repeatedly, the majority of unionists don't see them as 'equally Irish'. The clue's in their name.It's quite logical for a unionist from Northern Ireland to see the Republic of Ireland as foreign, surely? They're two separate countries, both equally Irish.
I think Northern Ireland should remain part of Britain because that's what the majority British people there want, as demonstrated in every election for 90 years. Whether or not some event 400 years ago was legal, whimsical or paranoid is of lesser historical interest, I reckon.
And presumably you agree with all illegal colonization done by other cultures, even if the majority in there has been artificially transplanted there against the wishes of the indigenous population??
Pomp and predictable hot air aside, basically:
Someone born in Newry is 100% Irish
Someone born in Dundalk is 100% Irish
Under the GFA, the person in Newry has a right to an Irish nationality, as bestowed by the Irish government. The exact same nationality as the Dundalk lad/lassie. Not an N Irish identity, an Irish one.
Yet you state that the two people are 100% foreign from each other?
You'll have to forgive me. I have a Masters degree in Engineering and I can't work that one out!!!![]()
You what? I've never denied that any unionist isn't British. Stop posting nonsense.Originally Posted by Ardee Troll
I'd have had no problem answering. Doesn't mean the survey covers all possible responses, allows for overlap and so on, does it?As for the questions being 'loaded', paranoia besides, clearly 80% of respondents had no problems answering
Who says I don't? I know quite well how these things work, having answered hundreds of them and occasionally devised a few. You need to lay off it and all, your rank-pulling is as pompous as anyone on this board.which you'd know if you knew the slightest thing about the matter in hand. You need to lay off the pomposity
One's called the Republic of Ireland, the other's called Northern Ireland. Both names are equally Irish. It's obvious.the majority of unionists don't see them as 'equally Irish'. The clue's in their name
You presume wrongly (no surprise there). I haven't said I agreed with any colonisation, illegal or otherwise. Merely that judging people now based on what their ancestors did 400 years ago is a bit pointless.And presumably you agree with all illegal colonization done by other cultures, even if the majority in there has been artificially transplanted there against the wishes of the indigenous population??
Ha ha. More pompous claptrap.
You keep saying unionists in general are Irish.The trouble is they don't!
Ironically when asked, even unionists of your acquaintance confirmed their British status, pretty convincingly.
Clearly you have no real knowledge of their outlook and of course the inevitable pomposity angle speaks for itself.
This extends to your very limited perception of the situation;The two names you refer to are Ireland the country and part of Britain.
While you are surprised that people are protesting against colonization, just like the Palestinians will be doing in the next millennium, and describe it as 'pointless'.
Yeah right, get real.
Do you even read your previous posts on this thread? Or the evidence to counter what you say?
As virtually all of them have been contradicted in that last laboured response.
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 30/07/2010 at 9:12 PM.
A quote elsewhere but no link to the source provided.
NORTH – SOUTH FOOTBALL DISPUTE FINALLY RESOLVED BY CAS
The long-standing dispute between the IFA and the FAI regarding the eligibility of Northern Irish players to play for the Republic of Ireland appears to be over, following an historic ruling today by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Lausanne, Switzerland.
The CAS today rejected the IFA’s appeal against a previous ruling by FIFA that former West Ham starlet Daniel Kearns was eligible to play for the Republic of Ireland. The CAS has given the green light for Kearns to continue to play for the Republic, even though the player himself, his parents, and his grandparents were all born in Northern Ireland, and he had previously represented Northern Ireland up to under-17 level, before recently competing for the Republic at the UEFA European under-19 Championships.
The IFA, represented by King and Gowdy, a firm of solicitors in Belfast, claimed that Kearns had no territorial link to the Republic of Ireland and therefore was ineligible to play for the Republic. In contrast, the FAI, represented by David Casserly, a Dublin barrister who appears regularly before the CAS, argued that according to FIFA’s rules (Articles 15-18 of the FIFA Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes), Kearns’ dual UK and Irish citizenship allowed him to compete for either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland.
The CAS ruling ends a particularly hard fought dispute between the two Irish Associations, which concluded with an eight-hour hearing in Lausanne last Monday. The binding decision by the CAS will have a significant effect on the issue of player eligibility in Ireland, and it paves the way for other Northern Irish-born footballers to declare for the Republic.
The first player to benefit from the CAS ruling is likely to be Everton defender Shane Duffy, who will now be free to play his first official match for the Republic, having had his application to switch allegiance delayed by the ongoing dispute between the Associations.
Last edited by Mr_Parker; 30/07/2010 at 12:52 PM.
The Football Association of Ireland today (July 30) confirmed that it has won the case taken to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) by the IFA in relation to Daniel Kearns.
The landmark ruling vindicates the FAI and FIFA position that players born within the island of Ireland are eligible to play for FAI international teams and provides complete and final clarity on the matter.
The Football Association of Ireland delegation which attended the hearing on July 19 in Switzerland was composed of John Delaney, CEO, Michael Cody, Honorary Secretary and Sarah O’Shea, Legal Director. The FAI was represented by Paul Gardiner SC and David Casserly BL.
Daniel Kearns was represented by Gary Rice of Beauchamps.
The FAI thanks the many bodies which assisted it in this case including the Irish Government, the Department of Foreign Affairs, the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport, the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Irish Sports Council, FIFA, UEFA, numerous elected representatives throughout the island of Ireland and many others.
The ruling comes into force with immediate effect and under the terms of the ruling, the IFA will pay all related costs. The FAI would like to take the opportunity to highlight that it has in recent years had good relations with the IFA. Those were maintained throughout this case and will continue into the future.
Welcoming the ruling, FAI Chief Executive John Delaney said;
“Today’s landmark decision by the Court of Arbitration for Sport confirms the FIFA and FAI position on player eligibility. The ruling upholds the right of individual choice on this matter for players born north of the border. I would like to thank the many people from all parts of the island who were strongly supportive during this process, and in particular, recognise the determination of Daniel Kearns and his family to uphold his right as an Irish citizen to play for his country.”
We will CERTAINLY hear something today:
http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenera...0-1092-15-1-1/
DECISIONS IN THE CASES OF DANIEL KEARNS AND DAVID REBELLIN TO BE ISSUED BY THE CAS ON FRIDAY, 30 JULY 2010
Lausanne, 29 July 2010 - The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) will issue its decision in the arbitration procedure between the Irish Football Association, the Football Association of Ireland, Daniel Kearns and FIFA in the afternoon of Friday, 30 July 2010.
The CAS will also issue its award in the arbitration procedure between David Rebellin and the International Olympic Committee in the afternoon of Friday, 30 July 2010.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist thinks it will change; the realist adjusts the sails.
Confirmed on the CAS website now.
http://www.tas-cas.org/press-release
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