QuoteUp yer bum, English Bhoy.Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Spot on, Danny.
The only downside will be GR's doubtless uber long-winded and pompous response....
And based on the initial 'response' below, witless besides of course, being geographically challenged!
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 19/07/2010 at 10:16 PM.
Up yer bum, English Bhoy.
A constitution does not make people feel something that they are already.
The relevance of the constitution is that it recognises and legally guarantees the validity of the identities. The relevance of the GFA is that the identities are cemented with the principle of dual full citizenship from birth in the North, established as a fundamental constitutional right in the North and democratically accepted as so by the voters in the North.
Another relevance of the GFA is that the citizenship laws were changed in the South and are applied equally over the whole Island.
In other words, an established legal and social harmony with FIFA eligibility statute 15.
Or argue for Britain...or both Ireland and Britain....
Any idea what time we'll have some white smoke? Incidently, might just be lazy reporting but, a few articles I've been scanning start with something along the lines of. "IFA officials travel to Lausanne today..." "Daniel Kearns travels to Lausanne today..." etc. Unless this thing is on after lunch -shoudn't they have travelled yesterday? Otherwise I do hope someone brought a flask of tea and some corn beef sandwiches ...though I doubt that many Clare folk work for the IFA.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Cliftonville were playing at Donegal Celtics ground, which is right beside Lenadoon.
I wouldn't go into Lenadoon with a squad of Marines ffs.
I've never had a problem parking at any IL grounds, but Donegal Celtic is one I would never drive to.
What irritates me about much of the hysteria on OWC is this assumption that, should we lose a few players, the team will wither away. Rowan seems to be drawing on it. There are plenty of European countries with a smaller playing pool than even purely unionist NI. And they do OK.
My pleasure, although of course I've always been onside. I've always been from Northern Ireland and thus Irish.
We're both right, I think, if slightly at cross-purposes. I said "it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South". I was distinguishing between people like me (lifelong Irish, eligible for but uninterested in a RoI passport), and kids born in the South to parents determined to make a life there. Who won't be eligible. Of course I accept that kids born in NI to non-Irish parents may not be eligible either.I think you're mistaken or else my understanding of the application of Irish citizenship law throughout the whole island is incorrect
Thanks for the link to the Chen case.
If the latter, that does reassure my concern, thanks.In such an instance, Irish citizenship can be conferred by the Minister for Justice, or possibly it has automatic application from birth; not completely certain
Pretty much qualified there, Danny. Everything trivial contradicted by the one thing that's important, basically. Of course it's a perfectly legitimate aspiration, like Shay Given or Aaron Hughes lifting the cup at Euro 2012. But it isn't realistically going to happen.Pretty much every act and declaration by the British government in the recent contemporary past, bar voluntarily relinquishing the union with Northern Ireland, has more or less vindicated the notion that a united Ireland is a perfectly legitimate aspiration
It had 50 years of devolution/ autononomy, then 30 of ongoing violence. The latter would probably have had a 'place apart' effect even if the former hadn't happened. Now, we've got devolution again- and the Scots and Welsh have it too. Theoretically, Scotland could vote itself out of the union in the near future. We all know this is very unlikely to happen. Voters will happily elect the SNP to Holyrood, then drop them in every Westminster election. The legal pathway you mention will only be relevant if nationalistsNorthern Ireland certainly is no longer considered an intrinsic constituent part of the UK like, say, England or Scotland are - if it ever was at all, always having been a bit of a constitutional anomaly within the UK - and a legal pathway is in place for its departing from the union
a) get significantly more than 50% in an election (or pass the threshold in two or three). Getting 50.1% in one poll not enough, as it might easily fall to 49.9% weeks or months later
b) persuade the South to take you on. Bit of a leap that, when they've been standing by for decades without actually doing anything about it. If they had, Derry Cityside or Newry could have been in the Republic decades ago
c) get enthusistic, unquestioning agreement from unionists. Instead of, say, a suggestion to limited re-partition.
If FIFA replaced their grandparentage rule with one only referring parents, it would have a similar effect. Plenty of proud RoI and NI internationals wouldn't have been allowed to play, but who says that would have denied them any part of their proud patriotism? Similarly Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill, Alan Kernaghan weren't any less able to enjoy their identity simply by playing for an international side that wouldn't ncessarily have been their first choice. So I think you're exaggerating a bit, although admittedly the aggressive atitude taken by the IFA and many NI fans may go some way to explain this.I mean, telling an Irish national that he shouldn't be allowed to represent his country in the sporting sphere is kind of denying him his national identity
No need to be picky. My point was that providing those documents, rights and support costs very little. My parents worked for the Brit Foreign Office abroad for years and providing consular support to tourists who'd lost their passports or money was a very minor sideline. Following directly from that, offering the service doesn't cost much more for six million people in Ireland than it does for four. Why doesn't the Dublin government give the passport-holders a vote too for a small fee: then we could have an interesting battle for the last seat in Diaspora North-east...If I wanted to be picky, I could point out that Irish nationality entitles those living outside the state in possession of it to an Irish passport - and those rights that come with possessing a passport - as well as diplomatic support from Irish embassies or consulates abroad. So, something of substance at least beyond symbolic recognition
Broadly agreed. Of course there was gerrymandering as precisely defined in NI anyway (eg in Derry). You can see how the name got applied retrospectively to partition of the island as a whole. And why many people on the more moderate branches of nationalism use it as AB does.Beyond the morality of the partition of Ireland, I think it's clear that, while 'ArdeeBhoy' might be using "gerrymandering" in a technically incorrect context, he's treating it as being synonymous with the idea of manufacturing a state - like how an electoral boundary might be manipulated to favour a certain group over another - as big as it possibly could have been while at the same time ensuring a secure population bias in favour of as many Irish unionists as possible for the foreseeable future
Disagree with the latter point. Although I recognise the need at the time to placate disgruntled unionists as well as nationalists, Northern Ireland could have survived perfectly well with a smaller population and geographical area. Luxembourg manages well; Cyprus managed yet another partition despite being much smaller than NI, let alone Ireland as a whole. Not least because NI retained the security of still forming part of the much bigger Britain.Any bigger and the population balance would have been tipped in favour of nationalists/Catholics; any smaller and it would have struggled to sustain itself and left a lot more disgruntled unionists
I recognise the importance of the GFA, it's just rather less relevant- irrelevant- to my identity than others'.
The hundreds of FC United fans over from England seemed to have a great day out at the DC's Suffolk Road ground
A delayed response to this as I was unfortunately due back on planet earth for a while.
Firstly, I'll refer to "Ireland" as much and as often as I like, whether we are playing Northern Ireland or otherwise. No Ireland fans refer to themsleves as "ROI". We are identified by countries fans the world over as Ireland. If this irritates you - get a life. I'm not going to abandon what I call my country - just to comply with your specific world view.
I was not having a dig at you or your team in my original post - any offence taken could be put down to paranoia, ignorance/laziness on your part.
Who really gives a f*ck what the tournament is called anyway?? You obviously knew what I was referring to. Why get hung up on overly officious titles of tournaments when it was apparent what I was talking about???
Last edited by Wolfie; 19/07/2010 at 1:02 PM.
Quoting years at random since 1975
Didn't realise it wasn't in Solitude. Although I suspect you'd be safer going to DC without a squad of marines than with one.
I actually did drive there in 1990 when we played DC in a pre-season friendly. Left the car there overnight as well having
stayed in the Social Club until closing time (which was sometime after it got bright the following morning).
Heh. As you probably know, a lot of us up here think as EG does, although we wouldn't be brave enough to make an issue of it on foot.ie. That is, we just get mildly irritated at people equating the Republic with all of Ireland. It's pretty similar to others saying 'England' when they mean 'Britain'. In most cases it's just common use and no wind-up is intended, but there you go.
Echoing Wolfie's point, in most of the rest of the World it's just Ireland. The more so since Northern Ireland isn't a Worldwide news story any more. But of course you do something because it suits you, not dependent on what foreigners think. But recently, on another board, Wolfie's point was made by a Belgian guy. He lives in Nivelles, a suburban town near Brussels. An area in which many cities and villages- and even some streets in central Brussels- have two or three names.
Without wanting to lapse too far into whataboutery, earlier in the thread I found myself typing 'Home Internationals', before correcting. Clearly that would be seen as a wind-up, ditto the 'British Lions' in rugby union. And at least one prominent poster on this thread gets annoyed at references to 'the South', even though he must realise it's widely used in Northern Ireland.
I like to think of it like Virginia and West Virginia. The original state got to keep its name and the breakaway territory adopted a qualifier.
Aye, like the Irish League and the LoI.
...don't use that phrase on this thread!
Article in full..
IFA TAKE ON THE BOSS
IFA in Lausanne to tackle FIFA chief over player eligibility row
THIS is it ...
The last throw of the dice.
No more chances, no more appeals.
The Irish Football Association must tomorrow convince the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne that the most powerful man in football, FIFA President Sepp Blatter, was wrong to support the Republic in the eligibility row concerning a Northern Ireland-born player.
An IFA delegation led by Chief Executive Patrick Nelson, President Raymond Kennedy and two lawyers will aim to prove FIFA are going against their own rules and statutes by allowing the Football Association of Ireland to select players born in Northern Ireland who have no affiliation with the Republic.
Under FIFA statutes a player can only perform for a country if he is born in that particular nation or his parents/grandparents come from that country or if he has lived for two years continuously on the territory of the relevant association.
However 16 months ago, while at a FIFA conference at the Slieve Donard hotel in Newcastle, Co Down, Blatter stunned Irish FA chiefs and Northern Ireland fans by insisting the Republic is entitled to select any player born in Northern Ireland who holds an Irish passport due to the Good Friday Agreement.
This ruling by Blatter, it seems, totally flies in the face of his and FIFA’s own rules.
While the FAI celebrated what they believed was victory in the case, the IFA took advice before deciding to battle FIFA head-on at the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne.
The Irish FA in recent years have lost three players — Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson and Shane Duffy — to the Republic, despite these young guns being born in Northern Ireland and playing for IFA under-age sides.
While the IFA has no major objections with Duffy and Wilson changing allegiance as they qualify through the parent/grandparent rule, those in power at Windsor Avenue believe FIFA, in line with their statutes, should have stopped the FAI from selecting Londonderry-born Gibson, as he has no family connections with the Republic.
The IFA fear Northern Ireland could lose more young players to the FAI this way and so, after failing with FIFA, they feel they were left with no option but to file their submission with CAS.
Northern Ireland manager Nigel Worthington is tired of losing players to the Republic who have come through the IFA under-age system and he has called for “common sense” to prevail in Lausanne.
“We have got to be positive and believe that the CAS will find in our favour,” says Worthington.
“I see it as a black and white decision. There can no longer be any ‘ifs, buts or maybes’. That is not good for the Association and those coaches working with young players and selecting teams.
“We need to clarify the situation and I just hope common sense prevails.
“I’ve said from day one that the association is right and proper in taking the case to the CAS and trying to show FIFA the errors of their ways because no-one else is looking after us. We have to look after ourselves.
“We produced, in Darron Gibson and Shane Duffy, two very good players who will be around the top end of football for years to come. We put time and effort as an association into their international careers, as have the coaches who worked with them over the years.
“When the time comes, there is a loophole there that has been exploited and that’s not right.
“We need that dealt with firmly by people at the top end of football.
“This is similar to the ongoing row about goal-line technology. Common sense tells you FIFA should introduce goal-line technology.
“It makes sense for FIFA to bring in video goal-line technology and it makes sense for CAS to back our case.”
The Irish FA will put forward their arguments tomorrow, but a decision from CAS isn’t expected until later this week. This time, if the ruling goes against the IFA — there is no avenue for appeal. They really are at the last chance saloon...
That would be the same goal-line technology that the IFA voted against when given a chance to decide it's fate, thus consigning it to oblivion for the forseeable future aye?
The same, although I don't see the problem with Nige contradicting what some other IFA hack said at the last FIFA international board meeting. I doubt they had an earlier meeting to mandate the delegate. He may simply have expressed a personal view, or followed Onkel Sepp's lead.That would be the same goal-line technology that the IFA voted against when given a chance to decide it's fate, thus consigning it to oblivion for the forseeable future aye?
As Blatter seems now simply to have changed his mind under gentle pressure after the Tevez/ Neuer incidents, the foreseeable future looks unnecessarily pessimistic. You could see it trailed in the next U-20 or u-21 competition, say.
I think most people actively involved in the game support goal-line technology. It seems to mainly be technocrats and players from the good old days before there were nets in the goals who oppose it on ideological grounds.
Answering my own question -ruling not expected for several weeks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...sh/8836124.stm
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
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