Player eligibility row

[Gather round]

If you can find vast swathes of people who claim similar I'd be amazed

I haven't claimed vast number, nor indeed anyone. I've merely pointed out that having been born in Ireland, grown up there, been to school, college, work etc., sounding Irish and er, wanting to identify as Irish, I AM Irish. It's quite simple really. If other similar-background people don't want to join me, I disagree with them (although I think you exaggerate the extent to which they deny Irishness).

Taken from the same book of 'cliches', you refer to, in the usual paranoid manner

Look, if you don't want to be dismissed as cliched, stop spouting cliches. All that "don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture" means is basically 'don't want a united Ireland'.

WTF are you on about?? Everyone who's half-wise knows the whole thing was gerrymandered

Er, I agreed the way the border was drawn was unfair (particularly to the 11% who were nationalists in what became NI). Not having a border would have been equally unwelcome to the 17% unionist minority in Ireland. Just as unfair to more people, so arguably worse overall?

think it's a useful issue to support your views against the Irish state, you now 'claim' to be part of above??

I don't claim to be part of the [Republic of] Irish state, I'm from a different country which includes part of Ireland. Try to understand the difference.

Actually you raised the issue, implying they weren't Irish because they had lived elsewhere. presumably more irony?

I didn't imply that. I said they were English because in most cases they'd grown up almost entirely in England, probably with English parents (my only arguable implication was that, if they qualify through grandparentage, other close relations are likely to be not Irish, most obviously er, English). No irony needed.

Except you said it. And am fairly confident those are all partial issues, but then you haven't presented any evidence from any nationalists!

I referred you to Mr Parker only yesterday on this thread. He said "Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many". I might be wrong in my assumption that his existing support for the RoI is the main one, but he can asnwer himself. Newryrep's unequivocal comment I will dig out of the index.

Yer the one saying how wonderful OWB are. Go on there and convert them instead?? Enough others have tried!

On the broad eligibility issues, it should be fairly obvious I disagree with many on OWC. I've no problem with players from NI appearing for the South (unless they've already played for NI as adults). As for the CAS thing, I think it's both pointless (ie inevitably destined to lose), wasteful (the IFA is skint as it is) and indeed vindictive.

Why not let them be the judge but am fairly confident on this one I'm right and you're wrong! Lol

Of course. It's a discussion board, no doubt they'll have their say shortly.

[co. down green]

As NI U21 manager Steve Beaglehole put it to The Sunday Times: "They were some of our most promising players. They stay with us and then they get cherry-picked when they are making a mark at their clubs. That is when the offer comes and inevitably it is the best players that are sought after."

Marc Wilson and Darron Gibson were not making a mark for their clubs when they decided top play for Ireland. They were both 16 when they joined the Ireland underage set-up.

Perhaps Beaglehole should consider how he came to persuade promising Manchester United youth player Oliver Norwood to leave the English youth set-up to join him. Over 25 English born youth players have been 'cherry picked' by Beaglehole to represent the North in the last few years. The large number of players has attracted the concern of the English FA and players like Joe Dudgeon have been contacted by the English FA about his future intentions.

Its quite clear that it is palyers who are contacting the FAI with the intention of representing Ireland as was the case with Wilson, Duffy and almost all of the current crop of players from Derry like the McEleney brothers.

[Gather round]

CDG, as I've agreed earlier in the thread Beaglehole is being a hypocrite, but do you have any links for the English FA's supposed concern? I'd say the most likely of the guys you mention to have a choice to make is the Watford defender, Lee Hodson. Only 19, but with 20-odd games in the Champ last term he could conceivably be in our full side soon at right-back. Let's be honest, his chance of England U-21 is probably marginal and of displacing Glen Johnson, zero.

[Charlie Darwin]

WTF are you on about?? Everyone who's half-wise knows the whole thing was gerrymandered.

Perhaps they do, but everyone who knows the definition of the word "gerrymandered" knows that they'd be wrong.

If the border had been gerrymandered, they would have given over more territory to the Free State.

edit: well strictly speaking gerrymandering doesn't apply at all to national borders but you get the gist of it

[ArdeeBhoy]

CD,
My post was a little sarcastic. But Gerrymandering can work both ways you know.

I've merely pointed out that having been born in Ireland, grown up there, been to school, college, work etc., sounding Irish and er, wanting to identify as Irish, I AM Irish.

Hmm. The GFA allows for this, not that it means anything conclusive. Except to make allowances for a miniscule no.of oddballs.
But again, amnesia springs to mind as you keep telling us you're British! And how you want nothing to do with the indigenous population of Beal-feirste!!
And not Irish in the sense that most Irish people would accept it, eg. by way of passport, culture etc.

Look, if you don't want to be dismissed as cliched, stop spouting cliches. All that "don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture" means is basically 'don't want a united Ireland'.

Similarly, them rejecting the vast majority of the island, whether they wish to be 'united' or not.

Not having a border would have been equally unwelcome to the 17% unionist minority in Ireland. Just as unfair to more people, so arguably worse overall?

Or they could always have moved to the Britain they, er, idolise so much......

I don't claim to be part of the [Republic of] Irish state, I'm from a different country which includes part of Ireland. Try to understand the difference.

Only on a definition based on an illegal occupation. Great.

I said they were English because in most cases they'd grown up almost entirely in England, probably with English parents (my only arguable implication was that, if they qualify through grandparentage, other close relations are likely to be not Irish, most obviously er, English). No irony needed.

Except in most cases you'd be wrong, hence the comment re.irony!

I referred you to Mr Parker only yesterday on this thread. He said "Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many". I might be wrong in my assumption that his existing support for the RoI is the main one, but he can asnwer himself. Newryrep's unequivocal comment I will dig out of the index.

Assuming you can talk for them, in at least one instance thought detected at least a slight hint of sarcasm/irony, which doubtless they'll confirm?? And dozens of other Nats will of course agree with you. Not. Lol.

[Sullivinho]

Ladybird book of Cartoon Provo cliches

For future reference, that phrase would sound a lot snappier if you omitted 'cartoon' which is effectively already implied by 'Ladybird'. 'Ladybird book of Provo clichés' - see how much easier that rolls off the tongue? Assuming you employ it as much verbally as you do in composition.

Terrible research by the journalist.

And a cautionary tale about the dangers of Google's 'I'm feeling lucky' button.

[Gather round]

Hmm. The GFA allows for this, not that it means anything conclusive

Whatever you think the GFA allows for is irrelevant- I don't need it to be Irish. I was Irish for decades before the GFA was a twinkle in Mo Mowlam 's eye. How many times?

But again, amnesia springs to mind as you keep telling us you're British!

Yes- I'm British and I'm Irish too. Yippee!

And how you want nothing to do with the indigenous population of Beal-feirste!!

Apart from me being as "indigenous" as anyone else from Belfast (ie, not at all), when did I say I wanted nothing to do?

And not Irish in the sense that most Irish people would accept it, eg. by way of passport, culture etc

See above. In your blinkered World, only the majority who want a united Ireland count- even if they're never been near Ireland. For God's sake, do better?

For future reference

I suggest you follow your own advice and do some research. All Ladybird books explain simply- unsurprising as they're aimed at little kids- not all are cartoonish. Apologies if I repeat myself, it's understandable given the sheer volume of nonsense spouted by AB and occasionally echoed by you.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Address your issues re.Amnesia and you have your answer.
Though I suspect memory loss, selective or otherwise, will prevail!

[Charlie Darwin]

CD, My post was a little sarcastic. But Gerrymandering can work both ways you know.

Gerrymandering just doesn't apply. The word "gerrymandering" refers to the manipulation of borders within a state to ensure electoral dominance, whereas the borders between Northern and Southern Ireland were drawn in such a way as to maximise territorial dominance. I probably wouldn't have pointed it out except that if you're to cling to these archaic civil war politics then you might as well get the details right.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whatever you think the GFA allows for is irrelevant- I don't need it to be Irish. I was Irish for decades before the GFA was a twinkle in Mo Mowlam 's eye.
Apart from me being as "indigenous" as anyone else from Belfast (ie, not at all), when did I say I wanted nothing to do?

Yeah right! See above.

All Ladybird books explain simply- unsurprising as they're aimed at little kids- not all are cartoonish. Apologies if I repeat myself, it's understandable given the sheer volume of nonsense spouted by AB and occasionally echoed by you.

Pomposity alert!
Assuming of course GR doesn't spout any nonsense which of course is far from the case!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Gerrymandering just doesn't apply. The word "gerrymandering" refers to the manipulation of borders within a state to ensure electoral dominance, whereas the borders between Northern and Southern Ireland were drawn in such a way as to maximise territorial dominance. I probably wouldn't have pointed it out except that if you're to cling to these archaic civil war politics then you might as well get the details right.

Except that I've already said it was tongue-in-cheek, even accepting your definition of gerrymandering in an Irish context. And have never ever mentioned the civil war on this MB, or elsewhere, for that matter.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's not just my definition! And I believe calling the state of Northern Ireland an "illegal occupation" would fall under the banner of civil war politics. Unless you were being sarcastic about that too; in which case it might be worth looking into why your sarcasm is so easily conflated with your serious points.

[seanfhear]

Fair dues to youse posters you sure like an argument (Ye could argue for Ireland)

[Predator]

This is a bit silly. SB mades it sound like the FAI send round the child-catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. In practice they pick the players they consider the best, the most likely to progress to the senior team. If Dogarse and his boss want to stop this happening, they could have made an effort to reach some bilateral agreement with the FAI. That neither side will choose anyone who's reached 18 and played adult representative games for the other.

Agreed. Beaglehole, along with Worthington, coming out with ignorant babble. I couldn't help but laugh at their comments at the time and I still can't help but laugh.

Ill-informed nonsense. Even if by 'anti-sectarianism smashed' all he means is 'more than the odd nationalist plays for the South', I've explained above why this is unlikely to have an enormous effect. The NI team will continue to include nationalists, while most fans in nationalist NI will go on supporting the Republic. Which isn't sectarian either. The intent (and effect) of Football for All is to make the atmosphere at games and arround more welcoming, not to convert anyone.

Indeed, well said GR. I have a feeling that Rowan wants to come across as 'even-handed' to both sets of supporters and his poorly researched, spurious assertions do not help his case whatsoever.

There's nothing stopping them now, up to a competitive full international cap, or having already changed once.

Exactly. This whole idea of Shane Duffy's (and Kearns') decision to change opening the proverbial floodgates is nothing more than sensationalism. Players have been switching for years.

[gspain]

PS I think GS was wondering aloud about whether Dublin plates might increase the likelihood of his car being stolen or damanged if parked aroud the Holywood and Shore Roads near Glentoran and Crusaders. I'd like to hope not.

I've never had a problem at either ground but both are located in less affluent areas of Belfast. It wouldn't stop me going to either ground for a game I wanted to see
but I'd be less likely to go on a whim. I've parked at both without a problem. For either I'd arrive really early and park right at the gate. There are areas near quite
a few LoI grounds where I'd be reluctant to park too.

For Windsor I can turn off the Motorway, go up the Lisburn Road and park on leafy Windsor Avenue where anyone would have a better class of car than mine to steal/damage.

By sheer coincidence I was just talking to a friend tonight and a mutual friend of ours was meant to go to Cliftonville v FC United yesterday but decided not to for fear his car would
be stolen/damaged.

[Predator]

Good Ol' Nige is hoping for common sense to prevail tomorrow. Is he switching allegiance too?

Nigel up for FIFA battle

FIFA insist that if a player holds an Irish passport then he qualifies to play for the Republic due to the Good Friday Agreement. But Northern Ireland boss Worthington insists: “We need to clarify the situation and I just hope common sense prevails.”

[geysir]

So once the case has been completed at CAS, will it be known as 'he's declared on a Kearns' from then on?

[Predator]

The following is a piece by Paul Rowan, in The Sunday Times.
I was unable to find a link, so I've just typed it out.

Thanks for typing the article out Fly, but the article is awash with nonsense. I think Rowan got lazy, or else he was bluffing all along.

[Sullivinho]

So once the case has been completed at CAS, will it be known as 'he's declared on a Kearns' from then on?

It'd be one way for the lad to make a name for himself. Probably not the method he'd personally have gone for though.

[DannyInvincible]

All NI-born (players) are Irish. I'm 100% Irish, just like you.

Good man, delighted to have you on side.

There are plenty of dubious aspects about its application, and others worthy of debate, maybe elsewhere. Just to repeat a couple briefly- it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South. As confirmed by nearly 80% in a recent constitutional referendum.

Are you sure? I think you're mistaken or else my understanding of the application of Irish citizenship law throughout the whole island is incorrect. To the best of my knowledge, however, it makes no distinction regarding place of birth on the island in terms of accessibility, entitlement or right. The amendment you mention also applied to those born in the north; the effect of the amendment was to prospectively restrict the constitutional right to citizenship by birth to those who are born on the island of Ireland to at least one parent who is (or is someone entitled to be) an Irish citizen. After all, the need to tighten up the "loophole" derived from the Chen case; when a foreign national gave birth to a child in Belfast and was thereby able to claim residency rights in the UK as the mother of a child in possession of Irish/EU citizenship.

Many of the people affected (ie, those born to non-nationals in the Republic, and the parents) will likely be refugees, or unable to return to their own countries for economic or other reasons, and thus to qualify for passports there. Which must create the real risk that they'll be stateless.

I haven't had a look at the relevant legislation in a while, but I'm pretty sure it does include a provision conferring citizenship (or allowing for the the possibility of such) onto those born in Ireland to foreign nationals who would otherwise be stateless, presumably by virtue of circumstances beyond their control or whatever other factors might restrict them from claiming a citizenship they might normally be entitled to. In such an instance, Irish citizenship can be conferred by the Minister for Justice, or possibly it has automatic application from birth; not completely certain. Anyhow, I believe the relevant legislation conforms with a 1954 UN convention relating to stateless person. One thing I know for certain, however, is that there's no legal vacuum there. I hope that soothes any anxiety. ;-)

As for the irredentism (although I think the name's overblown), it's still there. Every political institution in the South has reuniting Ireland as a major theoretical objective, even if we all know you won't see them for dust if it ever becomes even a remote posibility in practice.

Pretty much every act and declaration by the British government in the recent contemporary past, bar voluntarily relinquishing the union with Northern Ireland, has more or less vindicated the notion that a united Ireland is a perfectly legitimate aspiration. Odd considering Northern Ireland's supposed integral part of the UK?... Northern Ireland certainly is no longer considered an intrinsic constituent part of the UK like, say, England or Scotland are - if it ever was at all, always having been a bit of a constitutional anomaly within the UK - and a legal pathway is in place for its departing from the union. If the UK felt this so-called Irish irredentism was completely and unquestionably illegitimate, the notion alone of Northern Ireland's departure from the union wouldn't be so seriously entertained.

This is a bit over the top, Danny. Wanting guys from Derry or Newry to play for NI doesn't quite equate to exclude dsisenters, deny their nationalism or whatever.

I don't know. I mean, telling an Irish national that he shouldn't be allowed to represent his country in the sporting sphere is kind of denying him his national identity. I'm really not trying to sensationalise anything here. It's quite simple to see the implications of a desire to restrict his right.

Has FHTB banned you then? Look, we feel your pain, but it isn't the end of the World. Just re-register. Ardee Bhoy will lend you one of his numerous aliases. Just remember to use the phrases 'paranoid planters' and 'medieval theme park' in every post and you'll be fine.

Hehe, I can't remember which thick buffoon it was banned me last time, although I have been banned on two occasions, supposedly for using threatening and abusive language under a previous third account - of which I have no recollection whatsoever of ever creating or using - or something. I never quite got an answer as to when this occurred or what it involved exactly. Anyway, I've gotten over that and try to remind myself that I'd only be wasting my time trying to spell a few things out there anyway. I do find it a bit frustrating, mind you, to see such unmitigated rubbish, ignorance and misinformation not merely spouted by the likes of 'fhtb' about things I care about, but also applauded and defended so vehemently by others even less knowledgeable than he, God help them. Nevertheless, I appreciate your sympathy.

It doesn't really matter whether there are two million or 20 million in NI, if the Republic generally doesn't give them (including me, potentially) the vote, social services and the like, its costs are negligible.

If I wanted to be picky, I could point out that Irish nationality entitles those living outside the state in possession of it to an Irish passport - and those rights that come with possessing a passport - as well as diplomatic support from Irish embassies or consulates abroad. So, something of substance at least beyond symbolic recognition.

As for the Rowan piece posted by 'The Fly', I appreciate the effort of going to the bother of typing it up, but it really is quite a poor article. 'Gather round' has offered a good dissection of it above. Personally, I think the least Rowan could have done, if he was going to do an article on the CAS case, would have been to actually quote the relevant statute correctly instead of, OWC-style, completely misrepresenting what it states. Then he might be able to even try and understand its implications. And "Gibsongate"?! Good Lord, where the hell did that obscenity originate? Thankfully, I've never heard anyone refer to it as that. Ever.

Perhaps they do, but everyone who knows the definition of the word "gerrymandered" knows that they'd be wrong.

If the border had been gerrymandered, they would have given over more territory to the Free State.

edit: well strictly speaking gerrymandering doesn't apply at all to national borders but you get the gist of it

Beyond the morality of the partition of Ireland, I think it's clear that, while 'ArdeeBhoy' might be using "gerrymandering" in a technically incorrect context, he's treating it as being synonymous with the idea of manufacturing a state - like how an electoral boundary might be manipulated to favour a certain group over another - as big as it possibly could have been while at the same time ensuring a secure population bias in favour of as many Irish unionists as possible for the foreseeable future. Any bigger and the population balance would have been tipped in favour of nationalists/Catholics; any smaller and it would have struggled to sustain itself and left a lot more disgruntled unionists than a few thousand Protestant landowner's in east Donegal. I don't think that is such a controversial idea.

Good Ol' Nige is hoping for common sense to prevail tomorrow. Is he switching allegiance too?

Nigel up for FIFA battle

Ha, indeed! Let's completely ignore what the relevant statute says in favour of Worthington's personal vision of "common sense"...