QuoteBring it on.
19th of July for the CAS case. Link
Irish Football Association v/ Football Association of Ireland, Daniel Kearns and FIFA
They should change that to, 'Irish Football Association v The World'
Bring it on.
Makes a change from them Derry wans imagining the world is against them...Originally Posted by Predator
It was meant to be a week earlier, but our lot couldn't make it. :-)
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Clearly putting it off out of fear. :P
How do the IFA rate their chances? I just can't see how they'll argue their case at all, unless they hold misconceptions on the concept of single and dual/multiple nationality.
There was some poster on OWC (I know, I know; very naughty of me... I shouldn't be in there) harping on about CAS adjudging the "fairness" of a rule. This belief, or blind certainty even, was seemingly based on the text of Wikipedia's article on arbitration; a general overview of what one might expect various or typical arbitration processes to resemble. Which is all very humourous and mind-blowing that one would feel the need to spin something like that in order to save face and uphold their strict "no surrender to Beggars" policy, but, just to be sure, is this within CAS's remit? I can't imagine it is. There's no reason to believe that it is seeing as there is no mention of such an element coming into play on their website, which outlines how they operate. I find it hard to envisage that all arbitration processes would be identical and contain the same elements as the next anyway. Surely, all CAS can work with is the rule in question and how it ought to be interpreted. The notion of fairness is so subjective and wishy-washy anyway that you could use it to bolster the argument of both sides. I mean, wouldn't it be highly unfair to deny any Irish national the right to play for his country?
I'm glad a date has been set though. At last, we should see an end to this ill-informed and confused moaning, and maybe all Irish nationals, able and lucky enough, can get on with playing for their country in peace. And we can all live happily ever after... Or is that one step too far?
First step to an all ireland team on 19th July?
The thread dedicated to the CAS Case on OWC has been closed for some reason. Perhaps it was closed on the expressed orders of the IFA, in order to limit the amount of 'public exposure' the case gets, so as to minimize the seemingly inevitable ridicule they will receive if (when?) they fail?
But don't you know that the FAI are on a crusade to 'nick' players as part of their shady scheme to sectarianise football on the island? Sure as one guy put it, the FAI are actually going against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement when they choose Irish players from the north.I'm glad a date has been set though. At last, we should see an end to this ill-informed and confused moaning, and maybe all Irish nationals, able and lucky enough, can get on with playing for their country in peace. And we can all live happily ever after... Or is that one step too far?
Oh yeah, the thread on Shane Duffy being "lifted" closed due to discussion on the nature of Duffy's switch? Must have gotten a bit too on-topic...
Can't imagine the IFA interfering with or demanding censorship of a private fan forum though - surely not - or is there some official connection there?
Ah yes, although sometimes I forget what we are. Is it beggars or poachers now?But don't you know that the FAI are on a crusade to 'nick' players as part of their shady scheme to sectarianise football on the island? Sure as one guy put it, the FAI are actually going against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement when they choose Irish players from the north.
It's a tad bit rich given that the whole idea behind the peace agreement was to allow both communities to exercise and express their own identities freely without having to suffer because of them or without one being compelled against their will into identifying with a nationality foreign to them.
'Appeals procedure' is the course of action for the IFA to follow in CAS. It is not ordinary arbitration.
From the CAS site
'WHAT LAW DO THE ARBITRATORS APPLY ?
In the context of ordinary arbitration, the parties are free to agree on the law applicable to the merits of the dispute. Failing such agreement, Swiss law applies.
In the context of the appeals procedure, the arbitrators rule on the basis of the regulations of the body concerned by the appeal and, subsidiarily, the law of the country in which the body is domiciled. The procedure itself is governed by the Code of Sports-related Arbitration.'
Definition of appeals procedure 'For disputes resulting from decisions taken by the internal bodies of sports organisations, the appeals arbitration procedure is applicable.'
Therefore Swiss Law applies as that is where FIFA is domiciled. What is fair or unfair does not enter the equation - (no Liberal Democrats in CAS).
AFAIU Swiss law determines that there should be no ambiguity in a rule. If there is ambiguity, then CAS will rule in favour of the appellant.
Basically it an open and shut case. But in the unlikely event that CAS find some ambiguity in the rule, all FIFA would have to do is reword the rule in order to remove the ambiguity.
Last edited by geysir; 14/05/2010 at 2:02 PM.
I was of course just joking, but who knows? There could very well be a connection, official or unofficial and I can't think of any reason why the thread was closed, because discussion was certainly relatively civil and on topic, but I suppose that is a decision for the admin.
Ha, good point! It seems we're sinister poachers masquerading as innocent beggars in order to fulfil the ultimate plan of sectarianising football in Ireland.Ah yes, although sometimes I forget what we are. Is it beggars or poachers now?
It's all very ridiculous.
There is an article in today's Sunday Times by Paul Rowan concerning Shane Duffy and the situation of northern borns moving south. According to Rowan, Duffy's clearance is actually being held up by the CAS case, meaning that Duffy won't get clearance until after the case. Seems strange, considering Duffy's situation is separate and distinct from the cases that the IFA are disputing. Perhaps it's a case of sour grapes on the IFA's part?
Interestingly, he notes that one of the main reasons Duffy ended up with NI up to U21 level was the 'struggle that Worthington put up to keep Duffy'. He explains that, in addition to fast-tracking Duffy, Worthington even asked David Moyes to attempt to persuade Duffy to stick with N.I., only for Moyes to advise Duffy to 'go with [his] heart'. Duffy claims that he was disappointed by Worthington's decision to name him in the squad despite being told well in advance that his heart lay elsewhere, but at the same time he is also keen to acknowledge the support he received from his coaches.
In the article, Rowan also brings up, what seems to me to be a moot point, that is, that playing for NI means that players 'don't have to travel to Dublin all the time'. Surely for players based in and travelling from England, a trip to Dublin isn't that much different to a trip to Belfast? He also writes that these players 'avail of the extensive and expensive youth system in Northern Ireland'. Tough. That's how it works. You take a gamble when selecting any player.
Duffy on wanting to play for Ireland:"No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country"No doubt, this kind of thing will annoy NI fans, but it's the cold hard truth, straight from the horse's mouth. It doesn't sound like Duffy had to be 'coaxed into' playing for Ireland, despite some of the ridiculous assertions from NI fans. I'm sure Duffy isn't alone in his sentiments either. Indeed he continues to comment on the amount of others considering changing:"There are definitely a lot. I can't name them because that wouldn't be right, but it is what they want to do. A lot will want to change and a lot won't, but I have made my decision and that is it for me."Oh, I forgot, this is supposedly 'playing to the gallery'.
That's very enlightening; so these "defectors" do actually have opinions of their own then? Well, by Jove...
I haven't seen the interview, but I just can't fathom this at all. Can anyone shed any light on it? Does Duffy suggest he's aware that this is the reason for the delay in the interview? What makes Rowan so certain? Not that I think there's a chance of it, but, say hypothetically, if the IFA were to win their appeal, what difference would that make to Duffy's circumstances? His father is still from Donegal and they'd just have to clear him anyway.
That can't be right. Sure, is he not an ungrateful, manipulative zombie?... However that works exactly.Duffy claims that he was disappointed by Worthington's decision to name him in the squad despite being told well in advance that his heart lay elsewhere, but at the same time he is also keen to acknowledge the support he received from his coaches.
Worthington naming him in his squad so as to make it appear Duffy was then pulling out or to publicise that the lad was rejecting a call-up was a disgraceful way to create a scapegoat amongst NI fans and brew up a media storm around the reasons in order to help garner exposure for the IFA’s CAS appeal. The IFA used Duffy for their own ends just as Duffy might well have found advantage playing in their youth system from whatever age when it seemed the natural "thing to do" given where he lived and it simply being what he always knew. It probably was like a default option, if you will, until he matured and realised that he could actively do something about his dream to play for Ireland - his country - if only it weren't for the huge psychological pressure being placed upon him by Worthington et al. Everything's voluntary in international football. NI fans seem to believe the IFA are all give and no take. It's a blinkered view and, indeed, betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world in general actually operates.
Sure, they could give up football altogether and not have to bother travelling anywhere at all... What an odd point for Rowan to make. What was the context? Was he suggesting Duffy should play for NI out of personal convenience or something?In the article, Rowan also brings up, what seems to me to be a moot point, that is, that playing for NI means that players 'don't have to travel to Dublin all the time'.
Indeed. There are no obligations in international football. The association is free to call up a player or not call up a player, just as any player is free to accept a call-up or reject a call-up. The dynamics of these interactions certainly do not create any future obligations.He also writes that these players 'avail of the extensive and expensive youth system in Northern Ireland'. Tough. That's how it works. You take a gamble when selecting any player.
Let’s ignore the specific rules in question here for a second and look at international football on a purely personal level for the players involved. They are people, after all, would you believe? Take Stephen Ireland, for example. He availed of our "extensive and expensive" youth system but has seen fit to take the decision not to represent us for whatever reason. He lied to the FAI and the Irish public - twice - as to why he was departing our squad under Staunton and that has embittered many. Some would be happy to welcome him back and others are naturally disappointed that a player with such ability decides not to provide us with the joy of watching him play. The door has still been left open by Trapattoni for any potential return should Ireland change his mind, but it's been left entirely up to the player when and if he sees fit. The FAI aren't demanding he play for us, nor will he be forced to play for us. Likewise, there are no calls suggesting he owes us some form of compensation or obligation because he played for our youth teams. Neither will they be dragging him over to CAS.
The difference between Stephen Ireland and Shane Duffy, of course, is that Stephen Ireland departed the Irish set-up in bad faith at an age that should have shown at least some level of maturity, whereas Shane Duffy, at the age of 17, remained, against his long-expressed will a part of the Northern Ireland set-up in good faith, seemingly as a favour to Worthington. And Northern Ireland fans then have the cheek to demand he owes them something and sully his name like dirt? It’s disgusting, especially after captaining their youth teams and giving his all for them on the field. If anything, I think Duffy has handled himself impeccably in all of this and has shown impressive maturity for someone so young. Furthermore, he’s not settling for second-best and is sacrificing a career of guaranteed international football with Northern Ireland by going down the more risky route in the hope that it will pay off in the long-term. That demonstrates tremendous ambition. A potential captain some day down the line, maybe.
Northern Ireland fans would have you think that Duffy came under excruciating pressure from Liam Brady & Co. Poachers to make the switch - almost as if he was conned or forced - but the reality is that finally declaring for Ireland was a relief for the lad. He now has the weight of that pressure Worthington was placing upon him off his shoulders. There was no coercion involved. What an insult to the lad. The IFA is where the pressure was coming from - respect to him for withstanding it - and it was coming from that side because Duffy had long made it known he didn't want to represent Northern Ireland at heart. As David Moyes advised Duffy, he went with his heart in the end. Although maybe Brady had already swindled Moyes too; you just wouldn't know...
Of course it doesn't. Probably because he wasn't coaxed at all.It doesn't sound like Duffy had to be 'coaxed into' playing for Ireland, despite some of the ridiculous assertions from NI fans.
Good for them, but I won’t rest 'til we've poached them all and brought the IFA to their knees!Indeed he continues to comment on the amount of others considering changing: "There are definitely a lot. I can't name them because that wouldn't be right, but it is what they want to do. A lot will want to change and a lot won't, but I have made my decision and that is it for me."
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 16/05/2010 at 3:27 PM.
It's probably because the IFA are embarassed by the paranoia of much of their fanbase and their hypocrisy in challenging this whilst trawling around for the likes of Norwood, Dudgeon & co.
As for the second point, the Seed Sowers can't really complain given they insisted on enforcing their will on what was (& is) the native population against their will, for how many hundred years....
They could at least make an effort to integrate!
"No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country"
The Duffy quote above just follows on from those of Gibson & Wilson.
Marc Wilson “It’s the best honour you can get to represent your country – it’s always been a dream of mine to play for Ireland”
Darron Gibson “It was unbelievable you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me”
I wonder if the IFA are complaining about players like Norwood etc... who 'avail of the extensive and expensive youth system in England' before deciding to join Worthington's team?
Any idea of who he could be referring to?
"We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo
I wouldn't be surprised if half his former team-mates would rather be playing for us. I don't feel it would be appropriate to single out any individuals though. They'd be castigated as the "enemies within". Whether these players make the leap is another matter.
To be fair, the reality probably is that they are biding their time in the NI set-up because it offers them certainty at this stage of their careers. Seems rather mercenary, and not something of which I'd wholly approve - if they consider themselves Irish and, indeed, are, I think they should be making the necessary queries and movements in order to get out of the system of which they now find themselves a part, possibly more through circumstance or convention than any positive choice in many cases, and try fight for a place in the Irish set-up - but then, I suppose, you could argue that they are perfectly entitled under law to identify as Irish, British or both if they so wish.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 17/05/2010 at 8:53 PM.
just as a matter of interest, would I be able to declare myself british today and opt to play international football for northern Ireland. I have no blood links to Northern Ireland at all. I know that was the case with Darron Gibson but Im just wondering if the same applies in the opposite direction?
Its really not that complicated!!!
It doesn't apply in the opposite direction. If you were able to obtain British citizenship, you would have to satisfy the terms of Article 16 in order to qualify for NI.
Why would you want to do that??
I have no doubt that it was a purely hypothetical question.
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