QuoteAye, I do know. Was being ironic....Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
The 'yellow' flag does not represent NI. It is a '9 county' Ulster Flag.
Aye, I do know. Was being ironic....
Would'nt it be a good idea if the IFA divested itself of Orangemen at the higher echelons if it were truly extending the welcoming hand to players from a Nationalist backround.
They should get their own house in order before they start thrashing about looking for others to blame.
It would be a good idea but they shouldn't have to, it's part of their culture. If they don't want to change anything they do though they will have to accept that any player born in NI can represent either the ROI or NI and will likely represent the country they have most affinity with. I don't know why we need to go into qualification requirements so deeply on this thread (interesting though they are) as the simple fact is, if you are born in NI you are entitled to Irish citizenship and can therefore play for either country and as such we can recruit if we feel like it.
Help something bit me!!!
Got a feeling that we're not going to get an answer from the OWC brigade.
Agree with the post above, let them have GSTQ, UJ & Orangemen running the show, just accept that the likes of Duffy, Gibson etc are going to throw their lot in with the Republic.
Its the way to go IMHO.
We can have one uber-British team based in the 5-shed stadium, and in the 5-star Aviva another one for the decent people on this island...
Compared to what they were, Orangemen these days are a fading social and political irrelevance, more of an anthropologist's curiosity.
It's peculiar the issues the OWC get all hot and bothered about, rip roaring mad about how they are depicted in that Night (19 years ago!) in November comedy play, they can fly into a fury and get organised about the Maze stadium, go on ranting and raving about their players being kidnapped but hardly a whimper about that GSTQ. They love belting out that anthem before games. GSTQ as the anthem, isn't an issue they feel slightly indignant about, bar a few half hearted polite discussions. Not that I actually think dropping it would make any real difference at this stage. The NI team ( even with nationalist players) is the team for the vastly predominant Unionist identity, with a veneer of an aspiration to be a team that represents all NI people.
That's about right!
McGinn & McCourt should meet up with Chester Williams.
NI has catholic players you know. There's one or two of them "about the place"....
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...t/IMG_0680.jpg
Last edited by dantheman; 09/03/2010 at 11:59 PM.
This is actually very interesting as there are 2 ways that I can see of interpreting Article 16:
1. It means that if nationality of one country (i.e. UK) entitles you to represent more than one association (i.e. NI, Scotland, Wales or England), then in addition to holding UK nationality, you also have to satisfy one of the conditions in Article 16. I think this is what it means - i.e. it's just to ensure that people with UK nationality aren't automatically entitled to play for 4 different national teams (a la Maik Taylor).
2. It could also be interpreted to mean that if a player has more than one nationality, then he must meet one of the criteria in Article 16 in addition to holding that nationality. In other words, if a player was born in Belfast and holds both Irish and British nationality, then he would only be eligible for ROI if he meets criteria b, c or d in Article 16. I think this is what the IFA are arguing. The sad thing is, they might have a case, as the wording above is not 100% clear.
If the IFA successfully argue that interpretation 2 is correct, then it gets more interesting, as it would mean players born in the North would generally not be eligible for ROI if they hold both British and Irish nationality, but they would be eligible for ROI if they hold Irish nationality only. Geysir insists that everyone born in NI is automatically both British and Irish, whereas others, including myself and Mr Parker, believe they have the right to choose, as that's what the GFA states.
hahaha that is pretty good though
H*nry a Prod? Somehow I doubt it. And even if he was, why would he want to join that paranoid rabble??
The former is now, bizarrely, how an ever increasing number of unionists now 'claim' to see themselves, after centuries denying they were anything but....
Hmm. There's a very strange stench about the place because of that.
But you have to appreciate the following.
You have a right to choose Irish or British or both, but when a player choses (is chosen) to represent the IFA, he is doing so as a British national. He is exercising his right to be identified as a British national.
The IFA is a British Association, only a British national can play for them.
Dear oh dear this is complicated!
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist thinks it will change; the realist adjusts the sails.
If they want to be a Brit, their choice I suppose. Besides the unfortunate political implication of that forced majority, they should be grateful FIFA though aren't insisting on a an all-British team.
I accept that a player has to have British nationality to play for NI, based on the revised article 15. Interestingly though, that means the IFA and/or FIFA would have every right to insist that they hold UK passports. I can't see what the argument against that could possibly be now, given that by definition a player is claiming British nationality when they play for NI.
However, that's not really relevant to my latest post, which is concerned with whether NI-born players are eligible for ROI under the revised Article 16. As I said, if the IFA succeed in arguing that NI-born players who hold dual nationality would have to meet one the criteria in Article 16 to be elgible for ROI, then the question of whether NI-born people are automatically both British and Irish becomes crucial.
Interestingly, you appear to have changed your view about whether NI-born can choose to have either British or Irish nationality or both. When I previously said they could, you responded with some pretty definitive contradictions of what I said, e.g.:
If you've changed your mind on that I'd be interested to know why.
The reason I ask is, if the IFA succeed in arguing that Article 16 applies to any dual citizens, and you were correct in your original statements about NI born people automatically holding dual citizenship, then in general NI-born players would not be eligible for ROI.
One way or the other, I don't think this case is as open and shut as some were making out.
Last edited by Nedser; 11/03/2010 at 12:47 AM.
Yes and also based on the older FIFA article 15 of eligibility a player had to have British nationality to play for NI.
FIFA make up the rules so FIFA have the right to insist that NI players carry a UK passport. They tried that and later amended their position to accept the Irish passport as evidence of identity. You do realise that a UK passport is no evidence of eligibility to play for NI. Neither Irish nor UK passport is evidence of eligibility to play for NI. The passport required by the match official is for evidence of identity not eligibility.Interestingly though, that means the IFA and/or FIFA would have every right to insist that they hold UK passports. I can't see what the argument against that could possibly be now, given that by definition a player is claiming British nationality when they play for NI.
There is no Northern Irish Nationality which entitles a player to be eligible for 2 Associations. Article 16 refers only to a players nationality allowing him to be eligible for >1 Association. It does not refer to a dual nationality making a player eligible for > 1 Association. The Nationality that applies to Art 16 is British nationality. Under article 15 a British citizen would be eligible for 4 Association, Article 16 defines the eligibility for British natinality in regards to each of the 4 Associations. Irish nationality does not make a player eligible for a British Association. NI is British. The status of NI in the UK has not changed.However, that's not really relevant to my latest post, which is concerned with whether NI-born players are eligible for ROI under the revised Article 16. As I said, if the IFA succeed in arguing that NI-born players who hold dual nationality would have to meet one the criteria in Article 16 to be elgible for ROI, then the question of whether NI-born people are automatically both British and Irish becomes crucial.
No I have not changed. NI born have an automatic right to Brit or Irish citizenship or both. They still have to do an action in order to exercise that right to be identified as an Irish national (eg ask to be chosen for the FAI), but post GFA they do not have to acquire the citizenship before or while exercising their right to be identified fully as a natural born Irish national (eg application for passport).Interestingly, you appear to have changed your view about whether NI-born can choose to have either British or Irish nationality or both. When I previously said they could, you responded with some pretty definitive contradictions of what I said, e.g.
You would be confused if you do not understand article 16 when it states clearlyThe reason I ask is, if the IFA succeed in arguing that Article 16 applies to any dual citizens, and you were correct in your original statements about NI born people automatically holding dual citizenship, then in general NI-born players would not be eligible for ROI.
One way or the other, I don't think this case is as open and shut as some were making out.
"A Player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality"
It states nationality, singular, not (dual) nationalities plural. There is no Northern Ireland singular nationality.
Last edited by geysir; 11/03/2010 at 9:14 AM.
I'll give credit where credit's use to Danny Kennedy et al, but this is the true face of football in the North.
Prepare for more Duffy's & Gibsons, Delaney must be laughing. Come to Daddy:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Red...all.6141422.jp
With regards to the North, have family born there. As far as we're all led to believe, it's an issue of choice as to whether they take a Brit.or Irish passport. Unsure if they can have both, but am sure at least one 'side' insists on revoking citizenship of the other, if not both.
Maybe someone can clarify? Also been told the only way you can have joint Irish-Brit.citizenship/passport rights is by marriage? Though don't know what happens in the case of divorce. Or the North!
It just goes to show what the North's fans are up against. Even their most bigoted fans are liberals compared to some of their politicos. And that's just the DUP!
Or should that be 'Come to Paddy'?
Ian Paisley Jnr epitomises (what seems to be wilfull) ignorance
Neutral?!"The national anthem should not be seen as offensive, it is the neutral anthem of the nation and it is something that I don't think we should ever concede."
No no no Jimmy boy. Removing a so called 'national anthem' (where a portion include their own lyrics 'no surrender' and leads some players to bow their heads in shame) in favour of a shared sporting anthem is more akin to removing politics from football!Mr Paisley called for 'unionist unity' to oppose any such move.
Traditional Unionist Voice leader Jim Allister slammed the IFA and accused it of making football political.
"Attempting to remove the national anthem is bringing politics into football," he said.
The scramble in opposition to this proposal from the unionist parties has already made it a political issue for them. I wonder can Jimmy boy tell me what anthem Wales and Scotland use before their sporting events? It's certainly not the 'national anthem'.It is foolhardy of the IFA to go down that path.
"The national anthem is the national anthem and this is the national team.
"It is right and proper that it would be played at matches."
The flat out refusal to compromise is telling. Talking about concessions to nationalists and whatnot... it's hardly surprising really. They'll reap the rewards of refusing to change the image of their team.
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