Player eligibility row

[geysir]

Sorry, that's not correct either. People born in NI have the right to choose Irish nationality only, but they are still eligible for the NI football team.

Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.

An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he she only aspires to be an Irish citizen.
NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI.

[Mr_Parker]

I really don't have time to look out the records (off to Tirana first thing tomorrow), but you and Mr. P are being seriously misleading if you think that the IFA ever actively sought to force NI players to carry UK Passports, or that Aherne's intervention was critical in reversing this.

The key elements are these.
1. It was FIFA who made such a requirement entirely out-of-the-blue, following a mix-up by one of their officials, entirely unrelated to anything Irish. I've no doubt that they issued their Circular without even thinking of the implications for the IFA;
2. When the Circular arrived at Windsor Avenue, it no doubt caused a degree of confusion/consternation. As a result, someone seems to have mentioned to a player(s) that they might/would have to get a UK Passport, but this was NEVER an IFA policy, and I am pretty certain that no general letter was, even can have been, sent out to NI players.
3. At this point, events took off down two lines. First, the IFA realised this needed sorting and got in touch with FIFA. Simultaneously, some (unnamed) player who had got wind, instead of going back to the IFA, got onto Pat Ramsey (player's local MLA?), which alerted Aherne. Suddenly, they (politicians) had a cause-celebre on their hands, and the papers had a "story". (As we all know, politicians don't refuse publicity any more than papers refuse ink).
4. Anyhow, the IFA was informed verbally by FIFA that NI players could use ROI passports, as normal, before the week was out.
5. Meantime, Aherne and Co. tried to claim the "credit" for this situation. Now it may well be that their "spin" was eagerly accepted by certain pet journalists - esp those who deal with political, rather than footballing matters (see eg the BT's plainly erroneous - not "curious" - report which you cite from May)
6. Finally, when FIFA got round to sorting out their paperwork and issuing rpelacement Circulars etc in May, Aherne looks to have made a final effort to claim credit.

This last, however, overlooks three key factors.
A. FIFA takes a dim view of overtly political interference in its internal affairs, preferring instead to deal via its Member associations. (In fact, I seem to recall a FIFA Official expressing irritation that the politicians were getting involved before they'd had a chance to look at it themselves?);
B. I do distinctly remember that the IFA was able to announce (end of March) that the matter was being resolved before anyone from the Irish Embassy was even able to set up a meeting with FIFA.
C. For as long as there has been a Free State etc, the IFA has been selecting players who have had Irish Passports. Had they wished, for some utterly bizarre, inexplicable reason, to prevent this from happening, they had the simple remedy of refusing to select them. Therefore why would they suddenly decide that they wanted to force players to carry UK Passports, as well as their Irish ones? Never mind the poltical controversy involved, expecting teenagers to cough up the extra fee for a second Passport (£70-odd?) was guaranteed to cause resistance.

Therefore it really doesn't make sense.

As for the contradictory accounts, these may be easily explained by a combination of both (initial) confusion at Windsor Avenue (which Wells and Currie subsequently look to have been attempting to conceal), along with certain politicians' seeking to gain political advantage at the expense of sport (and the truth, for that matter).

Neither of these last two factors surprises me.

Late Edit: It is not at all "incredible" that the IFA had made no official statement by the time of Aherne's "official letter of complaint" to FIFA. That was because they (IFA) were still discussing it with FIFA themselves and were in no position to speak out of turn. What you and Mr. P are overlooking is that it is easier for a meddling politician to make the running with Press Releases and public letters than it is for hard-pressed administrators (both IFA and FIFA) to sort these things out at 1,000 miles distance.
Remember, too, that whilst I have not the time to check it, the IFA will almost certainly have had some representative teams competing internationally between the end of March and the end of May. If it was never finally sorted out until May 26th, what Passports do you think the various players and officials actually travelled on?

I have checked with someone who was closely involved in the story at the time and indeed before it broke. He has confirmed geysir's account of what happened but added that it was started following a NI underage game when a Uefa delegate kicked up a fuss with the IFA at the game. This prompted the letter and lends weight to why Currie made his statement at the time. He was 100% that it was 'inspired' by the IFA and Roy Millar in particular, 4 players, then at that level, were furious at this and went to the press 'off the record.' The rest followed from there.

Interestingly he also went on to tell me that there is another player 'going south' within the next few weeks.

[Mr_Parker]

Geysir, just to be clear, the reason for my posting this information is in response to Mr Parker and others insisting that FIFA do not use passports to check nationality. They do. It's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things so I'm not going to post any further on it. I don't know why you're trying to deny that is the case to be honest.

Please provide your evidence.

[geysir]

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;1327684]
The key elements are these.

1. It was FIFA who made such a requirement entirely out-of-the-blue, following a mix-up by one of their officials, entirely unrelated to anything Irish. I've no doubt that they issued their Circular without even thinking of the implications for the IFA;

Agreed, it was not an IFA plan but they were compliant to begin with, gave all the appearance of ineptness and later in May, I suspect a resigned compliance maybe just like yourself when you wrote on the OWC site May 26
"My own guess is that most of the NI players that this presently applies to will quietly obtain a UK Passport (hopefully supplied and kept by the IFA). After all, if they don't (and the rule isn't overturned), they're spelling the end of their international football careers, since they can't e.g. "switch" to the ROI"

This last, however, overlooks three key factors.
A. FIFA takes a dim view of overtly political interference in its internal affairs, preferring instead to deal via its Member associations. (In fact, I seem to recall a FIFA Official expressing irritation that the politicians were getting involved before they'd had a chance to look at it themselves?);

What you recall was a statement by the IFA'a Jim Boyce alleging FIFA's dim view of the political input on this matter after Aherne claimed the right to the applause.

B. I do distinctly remember that the IFA was able to announce (end of March) that the matter was being resolved before anyone from the Irish Embassy was even able to set up a meeting with FIFA.

Surely you mean end of May?
Aherne gave a staunch rejection of the FIFA reply on Fri May 26, albeit typical political bluster, But he was efficient and did not take no for an answer.
The IFA offered a confused reply.
,Aherne had already dispatched the experienced diplomat to meet with the FIFA legal dept after that weekend on Monday May 29.
There was nothing resolved before that meeting. Ridiculous to think that FIFA would reverse a ruling the day after making it, even more so that it was a weekend and insane to think that the IFA could have inspired that miracle.

C. For as long as there has been a Free State etc, the IFA has been selecting players who have had Irish Passports. Had they wished, for some utterly bizarre, inexplicable reason, to prevent this from happening, they had the simple remedy of refusing to select them. Therefore why would they suddenly decide that they wanted to force players to carry UK Passports, as well as their Irish ones? Never mind the poltical controversy involved, expecting teenagers to cough up the extra fee for a second Passport (£70-odd?) was guaranteed to cause resistance.

Therefore it really doesn't make sense.

It makes sense. I accept that IFA had no issues with Irish only passport but were too inept to put together a coherent argument and were miles behind everyone else, even the OWC fans.

As for the contradictory accounts, these may be easily explained by a combination of both (initial) confusion at Windsor Avenue (which Wells and Currie subsequently look to have been attempting to conceal), along with certain politicians' seeking to gain political advantage at the expense of sport (and the truth, for that matter).

The abysmal stated track record of Wells in all similar matters and all records of his responses to this issue categorically rules him out as an influence.
I have no truck with Aherne nor his boasts, as his argument was populist bluster and also he demonstrated an ignorance of FIFA rules, but I trust the able ambassador Joe Lynch. The simple explanation is that the FIFA legal dept finally got to grips with the automatic dual citizenship thing in the context of NI. I have little doubt that the consensus of opinion from IFA (albeit muddled), the Brit Gov, the irish GOV encouraged them to review the situation themselves very carefully..

Late Edit: It is not at all "incredible" that the IFA had made no official statement by the time of Aherne's "official letter of complaint" to FIFA. That was because they (IFA) were still discussing it with FIFA themselves and were in no position to speak out of turn. What you and Mr. P are overlooking is that it is easier for a meddling politician to make the running with Press Releases and public letters than it is for hard-pressed administrators (both IFA and FIFA) to sort these things out at 1,000 miles distance.

With the benefit of hindsight I admit it was not incredible as we are talking about the IFA.
I was surprised that their only stated response in March was compliant to FIFA with no official statement considering the fears of a worst nightmare scenario that this ruling could bring to them. I have no doubt they were thinking. There is no evidence anywhere that their thinking actually produced any rational thought or action.

Remember, too, that whilst I have not the time to check it, the IFA will almost certainly have had some representative teams competing internationally between the end of March and the end of May. If it was never finally sorted out until May 26th, what Passports do you think the various players and officials actually travelled on?

With many things on this case you also have your timeline confused.
FIFA only replied on Friday May 26 to uphold their March ruling and reject Aherne's objection.
Aherne replied immediately and dispatched the ambassador on the Monday to meet FIFA legal department
Meanwhile the IFA were thinking.
FIFA replied on June 16 or a little later and reversed their ruling.

I have no idea what passports the NI squad used in the meantime. It has no relevance.

[seanfhear]

Lets just go the same way as the Irish rugby team.

Nobody cares whether players are catholics or protestants or nationalists/unionists.

It probably will hapen in the longer term so why not get on with it.

There are many players that want it as can be seen by their recent actions.

[co. down green]

Balls! Gibson was developed first by Institute FC (IFA member club)

All this huge ‘IFA investment’ in players’ nonsense is garbage. Most of it isn’t funded by the IFA, it’s funded by me and the rest of the tax payers in the North. Its my money going into stadia safety programmes, playing facilities programmes, flood lights, training facilities, trainers, coaches etc….

New 6 county excellence managers..funded by me the taxpayer, primary school coaches..funded by me the taxpayer, ground improvements..funded by me the taxpayer.

So I’m quite happy for some of my taxes, rates etc.. to be used to develop and nurture the Next Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson, Shane Duffy, Paddy McEleney, Daniel Kearns..etc, after all its my money.

Quite honestly, we could have coped with the odd Saul Deeney or Henry McStay in the past, for the sake of good relations (if nothing else).

So it’s acceptable as long as the players are not premiership quality?

[stiffler]

I think this thread has ran its course by now.

Its getting nonsensical at this stage.

[tetsujin1979]

it's going in circles. same as every other thread on the same topic

[Nedser]

Please provide your evidence.

I've already done so.

[Nedser]

Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.

An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he she only aspires to be an Irish citizen. NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI.

Exact words from the GFA:
"The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will ....

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

There it is in black and white. People born in the North are allowed to choose whether they are Irish, or British or both. Ergo they are not automatically British. They were automatically British in the eyes of the UK before the GFA, but not any more. This is exactly why the GFA is relevant to this issue.

[osarusan]

There it is in black and white. People born in the North are allowed to choose whether they are Irish, or British or both. Ergo they are not automatically British. They were automatically British in the eyes of the UK before the GFA, but not any more. This is exactly why the GFA is relevant to this issue.

By that logic babies born in NI would have no citizenship at all, as they haven't chosen yet.


They are British and Irish from the moment of birth as a result of the GFA, are they not (as opposed to being British from birth but also entitled to get Irish citizenship if they choose)? In order to "not be" British any more, they'd actually have to go and have their citizenship rescinded, I think.

[yapster]

I think this thread has ran its course by now.

Its getting nonsensical at this stage.

spot on sniffer,

[Nedser]

They are British and Irish from the moment of birth as a result of the GFA, are they not?

Seriously, I give up. I reproduce an exact quote from the GFA stating that people born in NI have the right to choose whether they are Irish, or British, or both and you still argue that it says something completely different. What the GFA says is not open to debate. It does not say or even imply that people born in NI are "British and Irish from the moment of birth". As for babies - I assume their parents can choose on their behalf - that's the way it works with everything else.

You might think logic dictates that they should be both British and Irish from birth, but that's not what the GFA says. And let's be honest - the reason it doesn't say that is the hardline Republicans would never have accepted an agreement that stated they are automatically British, and the hardline Loyalists would never have accepted an agreement that stated they are automatically Irish. It wasn't an accident that it says they can choose either - this was one of the fundamental sticking points!

Anyway, I agree with others that this has just got stupid.

[bwagner]

They have named they under 17 squad ..it unlcudes Ryan Brobbel who we are also in the hunt for. He is English born and on the books for Middlesboro

[boovidge]

This guy's a strange one.

Called up for us in January

Called up for Northern Ireland a few days later

[Nedser]

Brian Kerr's views on this issue in today's Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...265432025.html

His logic seems quite confused and inconsistent - he seems to be saying that it's not fair to recruit NI-born players because NI don't have too many good players to start with. But recruiting Scottish born players is not so bad because they've produced "the likes of Law, Dalglish, Souness, Bremner and Jordan, in better days".

He also admits to personally "having had early discussions with Darron Gibson about a possible switch to the Republic" yet thinks it's wrong to to pursue "lads who have played for Northern Ireland at underage level". To be fair, at least he acknowledges that he could be accused of hypocrisy!

[Mr_Parker]

I've already done so.

Link? Quote?

[Mr_Parker]

Exact words from the GFA:
"The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will ....

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

There it is in black and white. People born in the North are allowed to choose whether they are Irish, or British or both. Ergo they are not automatically British. They were automatically British in the eyes of the UK before the GFA, but not any more. This is exactly why the GFA is relevant to this issue.

"In the eyes of the British" It is "In the eyes of FIFA that what counts in this issue. The GFA has no relevance.

[Mr_Parker]

By that logic babies born in NI would have no citizenship at all, as they haven't chosen yet.


They are British and Irish from the moment of birth as a result of the GFA, are they not (as opposed to being British from birth but also entitled to get Irish citizenship if they choose)? In order to "not be" British any more, they'd actually have to go and have their citizenship rescinded, I think.

You are right to a point, but it is not as a result of the GFA. It is 'or' not 'and though and it was always the case. The GFA merely consolidated what two independent governments already recognised. No one has to rescind anything either.

[Mr_Parker]

spot on sniffer,

If you think it has run its course or it doesn't interest you, why not just ignore it.