I do feel sympathy for their decent supporters however having read OWC down through the years it is clear that many if not most of them hold nothing but contempt for the ROI and the feelings of nationalists in NI and that was even before the eligibility row surfaced so I find it hard to get too bothered about their own hurt feelings now. Just glad the whole thing is over as the whole argument was getting a bit boring.Originally Posted by ped_ped
Never ever take posters on an internet forum as a barometer of anything. The vast majority of NI fans are normal, placid people.
Even as someone who genuinely empathises* with the frustration felt by your average decent NI supporter that is pretty funny. I daresay if the situation and/or verdict was reversed and one of our politicians had a mic stuck in his face you could scarcely have elicited a more hysterical piece of clueless f***wittery from one of the Healy-Raes. It really is top drawer.
*I said empathises -not agrees with. I'm glad the IFA lost a fight they had to lose. They could and should've left well enough alone.
Going OT -and I shouldn't indulge the OT stuff in this thread but the nomenclature of the country is fairly straightforward. The country is called 'Ireland' or 'Republic of Ireland'. They are equally it's official English language names. There is very little by way of acid test to demonstrate this -none of you could do anything about it if I wanted to start calling the place Sh1tsville-on-Sea and as I'm just back from France it seems a much more appropriate name. It'd inconvenience no-one but myself when my mail stopped showing up.
But possibly the only time the actual name of the country is tested is when a new ambassador presents his or her diplomatic credentials to Mrs. McAleese. The envelope can be addressed to the President of Ireland or the President of the Republic of Ireland (or their Irish translations). Nothing else will be accepted and the envelope will be marked return to sender if it says anything else ...so for example 'President of the Irish Republic' is a non runner as there is no such place as the Irish Republic.
Last edited by Lionel Ritchie; 02/08/2010 at 4:54 PM.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
According to Article 4 of the constitution, "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". However the constitution makes a distinction between the state and the nation. It is a very carefully worked document, deliberately ambiguous in many regards, not least in naming both the nation and the state 'Ireland'.
Mary McAleese is the President of Ireland, but it doesn't say if that's Ireland the nation or Ireland the state. It is also says the president "shall be elected by direct vote of the people", but it doesn't say which people.
My reading of the constitution is that the state has the authority to govern the 26 counties, but that the nation is defined not by territory (as it used to be until the GFA changed articles 2&3), but by its people. And it seems FIFA and CAS agree with that distinction being a sensible one. Although Qatar may give citizenship of their state to any number of Brazilians, they clearly don't belong to the Qatari nation. Shane Duffy on the other hand is part of the Irish nation.
So given this decision, it would seem the FAI international side represents not the Irish state, but the Irish nation. it would therefore seem logical to drop the "Republic of" preface, and simply refer to ourselves as "Ireland". Although the FAI does not have jurisdiction over the north (apart from the Brandywell that is), my reading of these decisions is that it represents that Irish people, all 6 million of us, rather than 26 or 32 counties of the island
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
I hadn't had an opportunity to post since the decision was published but it certainly came as no surprise. I believe CAS have still to publish the grounds for their decision within the next few days, so that should be an interesting read. Hopefully that will put the issue to bed once and for all. I expect it to be in line with what posters like 'geysir' have been saying all along in this thread. Indeed, I have to thank him for his offered insight and regular clarification on the matter as a whole as, without it, my own understanding might have been lacking for much longer than it was.
'gspain' shed some light on his understanding of the whole thing about a week or so ago: http://foot.ie/threads/132063-Should...=1#post1380040
'co. down green' mentions a few northern-born players who played for our teams prior to the GFA in a subsequent post. This would imply that the GFA didn't actually change anything of substance as northern-borns always possessed a legal right to be recognised as Irish citizens.
My own feeling on the matter - which I admit is complete speculation - is that the GFA possibly spurred a change in mindset or a greater realisation of the possibility even. If the FAI were reluctant to call up northern-born Irish nationals prior to the GFA, I'm sure that changed once the extra-territorial application of Irish nationality law was bi-laterally agreed with the UK and consented to by a democratic majority in Northern Ireland.
Our constitution is pretty clear on the matter. Article 4 states:
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.
Use that as an acid test if needs be.
This article should clear up any further confusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state
There have been various names of the Irish state, some of which have been controversial. The constitutional name of the contemporary state is Ireland, the same as the island of Ireland, of which it comprises the major portion. However, in 1949 it formally declared itself a republic and was described in statute as the Republic of Ireland.
The United Kingdom objected to the name Ireland on the basis that it may be confused with the entire island. (Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom, occupies the remaining one sixth of the island.) However, that name was internationally recognised by the early 1960s and since the end of the 1990s has been accepted by the United Kingdom also.
So, the "Republic of Ireland" is a legal description for the state rather than the actual name of the state. The 1949 legislation - the purpose of which was to declare Ireland a republic and no longer a dominion of the UK - would have been unconstitutional had it made any attempt to amend the title of the state. Furthermore, the UK now fully accepts the state's official title as "Ireland" and refers to the state as such in official correspondence.
This is correct and will remain so as long as FIFA confer eligibility based on nationality rather than territory.
Please stop being so purposefully thick and have a read of the above few posts. I'm pretty sure the error of your ways has been pointed out to you time and time again, like most of the other facts you seem to intentionally ignore with regard to this whole saga, because I really can't imagine you'd genuinely be so lacking in the mental department.
I dunno if you're seeking to disagree with me but I can find little to disagree with in your post. 'Republic of Ireland' is indeed a legal description of the state. A prescribed acceptable term for correspondense with our President. Much the same as Nick Sarky could be be described, nay officially titled, as President of the Republic of France. It's just that in the common vernacular or when there's a shorter version available - no-ones going to bother saying that mouthful.
So contrary to another posters claim (think it was AB ...apologies if not) Mary McAleese is very much and absolutely the President of the Republic of Ireland.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Lionel - I think you've got that wrong. Most diplomats would try and get it right and address the President with his/her correct title - that is unless they wanted to cause offence. Apparently the British Gov., while refusing to acknowlege the existence of a 'President of Ireland' got around causing offense by addressing correspondence, to "President Mary Robinson" etc. with no mention of where she was a President of. That seems to be sorted now with the changing of Articles 2 & 3. Extradition warrants / legal documents back in the days were returned on technicalities to the UK when they were addressed "Southern Ireland. Eventually they got the name of the country right (Ireland) the hard way.
I'm not too sure what point you are making about France - but its official name is République Française - and they are very proud to be a Republic.
Last edited by janeymac; 02/08/2010 at 10:37 PM.
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that though. You initially suggested that "Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" were both equally acceptable as names for the state, as if they possessed equal official status. This isn't the case, however, as our constitution makes perfectly clear. There can be no official title other than "Ireland" for the state in the English language. The 1949 legislation sought to declare the state a republic and no longer a UK dominion. It could have declared the state a people's republic or whatever but the title of the state would still have remained "Ireland" and not the "People's Republic of Ireland".
As for the president, sure, I suppose she could be described as such in common parlance or in the media or whatever, but the official title of the president's office is the "President of Ireland". I would imagine that in referring to her as the "President of the Republic of Ireland" you would be committing a diplomatic faux pas.
In fact, the Wikipedia article above contains the following:
The Taoiseach, John A. Costello introduced the legislation with an explanation of the difference in the following way:
"If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of senior counsel, I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know...[Similarly, the state's] name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "the Republic of Ireland."
The effect was to declare the State to be a republic and thus 'no longer one of His Majesty's Dominions', whereupon it left the Commonwealth of Nations.
I think that explains the difference between a title or name and a description pretty well.
Again Janey -other than my having it wrong I find little to argue with in your post. Most diplomats would get it right or at least acceptable (though anyone sending a correspondense to President Mary Robinson at this stage fell foul of Ennis sorting office).
My point with France was that regardless of officially being Republique Francaise -most will likely just say France.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
The president accepts correspondence to both. That's equal official status.
Nope -you wouldn't. If you called her the President of Southern Ireland, Irish Republic or Pepsi Presents Peoples Republic of Ireland you'd be offside but President of the Republic of Ireland is fine.I suppose she could be described as such in common parlance or in the media or whatever, but the official title of the president's office is the "President of Ireland". I would imagine that in referring to her as the "President of the Republic of Ireland" you would be committing a diplomatic faux pas.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
The official website of the president (http://www.president.ie/) refers to the position as the "President of Ireland". The constitution does likewise. I'm not sure why the term "President of the Republic of Ireland" would be considered in any way more correct than, say, "President of the Irish Republic", but if you can show me some official standard or style for correspondence that equates such a description with the express title of the office, I'll happily agree with you. I've been looking for such a reference myself, but haven't encountered anything remotely official even describing the office in such terms.
Seriously, who cares? I'm tired of seeing this at the top of the forum. Let it go.
Though of course If you aren't interested, just ignore this thread!!
Poorly worded thread title. They're Irish players
Also, I would suggest there's a repeated confusion (not to say sleight of hand and talking out of both sides of the mouth) of many on this thread about ireland with a small "i" (the geographical land mass) and Ireland (the independent nation state).This could be solved by reference to the island being in the lower case (ireland), however that would risk upsetting the united ireland/Ireland supporters.
Those who are able, yet do not chose to exercise their right to citizenship of Ireland may well be irish, by dint of being born on the geographical island of ireland, but they most certainly aren't Irish. They may "feel" irish, but in the same way that I feel cold this morning. State of mind, subjective, and undemonstrable, or should that be non-demonstrated. Nationality should not be confused with sentimentality, feeling, or other unobjective criteria. Where free choice exists (and post GFA it does in 99.999% of cases), it is almost a binary option (excepting dual or triple nationality).
Northern Ireland is a self governing region within with state of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which also happens to be allowed to field an international football team under a legacy sweetheart deal from FIFA. By all means British citizens can also assert their affinity with the self-governing region, but I'd suggest to avoid confusion with the nation of Ireland, they refer to Northern Ireland in all cases, rather than Ireland (including their football association).
Last edited by OneRedArmy; 03/08/2010 at 8:27 AM.
Broadly agreed (although I'd prefer if you didn't assume that the wise and (over-)sensitive NI fans are two entirely distinct groups)...
The people I referred specifically as having been a) born in Britain, b) having lived their entire lives there until c) getting capped by the Republic of Ireland, you mean? Without getting too pedantic, they weren't born in Ireland, many of their parents weren't either, not least because they may only have only one parent or grandparent with any connection at all to Ireland. Nothing wrong with any of that of course, and to repeat ad nauseam I'm not denying Irishness nor anything else to anyone. Unlike you. I only mention them at all in answer to your absurd nonsense about them being automatically more Irish than me. The reality is that many of them are only recognised as mainly Irish because they're good at football.
Not true in the recent general election- the Conservative Party fielded candidates, in co-operation with the Ulster Unionist Party, in 17 of the 18 NI constituencies. And even in Fermanagh/ South Tyrone the single agreed non-nationalist candidate said that if elected he would broadly support the Tories.
As you suggest, it'a a shame that Labour (the only other British party which has been capable of leading a government in the last 90-100 years) can't be bothered to stand. And worse, stops local supporters organising. Fcuk 'em.
Ha ha. I fear it might be just a bit more difficult for this notional unionist-welcoming RoI football team to match the rugby boys' exploits. Like the competition in European/ World football being a bit stiffer. Anyway, the eggchasers' success basically amounts to topping the European qualifying group occasionally, if less often than Scotland or Wales.
Relax. I exaggerated for effect, you corrected me, I withdrew. As you say, let's not. I wasn't really saying anything other than a lot of your players are from Britain, putting some of the exaggerated anti-British comments from others above into context.
Indeed. And maybe more in the future, given the large number of English players in our U-19 and U-21 squads. All qualify within the rules, but personally I think it makes international football look a bit daft when so many are from outside the country.FYI, as far as I can tell, 4/22 of the current NI squad were born in England. I think you'd find similar scenarios in most international squads these days
I didn't, rather offering a rational explanation that people who are born, grow up and live their whole lives in England are likely to feel at least a bit English (and to have English, or at least non-Irish, parentage and grandparentage). I mean, if it's feathered, swims and goes quack there's a good chance it's a duck.I don't speak for all of them - it was you who originally tried to do that
In return you offered anecdotes. Fine, maybe they prove me wrong overall, maybe they don't. I've 15 first cousins btw, four of whom grew up entirely outside NI. While interested in family history and that, they see themselves as English and Canadian.
That's just silly. Part of Ireland has been part of Britain (the British state, if you prefer) continously for centuries. So many people feeling British is perfectly natural. There's nothing anomalous about it.find it odd that some people born and bred in Ireland feel British!...In my opinion, both of these anomalies essentially have their roots in a long history of discrimination and conflict on these islands
Ha ha. The Irish nationalists with any influence over this- led by all the political parties in Dublin bar Sinn Fein- seem to have done absolutely nothing about this in 60 years. As a result, hundreds of thousands of RoI citizens living in both NI and abroad don't get a vote. Why not?It's a shame isn't it [that people in Northern Ireland can't vote for the President]? It's not for the want of trying on the part of Irish nationalists though
See reply to Janey Mac above. The Conservative Party stood in NI in the last general election. They should have done it throughout the Troublings, of course, but small credit to them now.What's also strange is that residents of the UK like you can't vote for any of the parties ever likely to form the govt of your country
Agreed. Hereditary monarchies are regressive and undemocratic. It's amazing so many survive in Europe.And even more strange is that no-one can vote for who is the UK Head of State
Aye, in practice. There may be have been some contradictions between clauses in the constitution on one hand, and legislation on the other, suggesting that it wasn't automatic in principle. But I doubt that stopped anyone getting the necessary documents, let alone behaving as if they did.
Steady on. Who's died? Even I don't feel that, and I am one.I do feel genuine sorrow for the Northern Ireland supporters
I think it's more likely to be a modest number, not one that will steadily rise tending to 100%. For reasons detailed repeatedly above- the NI side will be easier to get into, players may want to stay with their mates from the youth teams, youth footballers may not feel as strongly as their elders on the internet etc. etc. So it's likely to weaken us a bit while strengthening you to a lesser extent.as time goes on more and more players born in Northern Ireland may well choose to represent the Republic and this is likely to put a signifcant dent in the meagre resources available to them while increasing substantially the meagre resources available to us
Impossible to say. If yer granny had balls, she could well have been yer grandad.It's unlikely that the successful Northern Ireland teams of the past would ever have qualified for finals tournaments if a handful of their better players had decided to turn out for the Republic
The fear's real judging by OWC etc., but it's hysterical. The forthcoming expansion of the European Championships to 24 teams increasing everyone's chances of qualifying by about 50% ; losing two or three players reduces them by a lesser amount.so there may be a very real and justified fear that this ruling marks the end of any likelihood of returning to those glory days
A lot of ifs there. In the 60 year history of international football competitions, the Republic of Ireland have had one eight year period of sustained success (1986-1994), sandwiched by two longer periods as an also-ran. During which the team has featured numerous players from outside the country. With due respect to Marc Wilson and Darron Gibson, it's asking a lot to expect them to change that.If we do benefit to the extent where we begin to qualify for more tournaments on a regular basis while Northern Ireland's team stagnates and suffers the effects of this player drain
You might see the odd one, hamstrung by the odd eligibility rules like Kernaghan or who went off in a huff after arguing with the IFA (like McGeady, allegedly). Put starkly: if the Republic do start to qualify regularly, the team will be harder to get into; if they don't, it won't be that much of an attraction to foreign players.you will see unionist players playing for the Republic on a regular basis within the not too distant future
A fair point generally. Although OWC (say) is likely more representative of fans than similar boards in larger countries, simply because a larger proportion of the fans read it.
Yes they are. Sorry, your post makes no sense. Assuming this isn't a gag and you really think using lower-case letters makes any difference.
This is just waffle.Nationality often IS based largely or wholly on sentimentality, for a start. Granny rule anyone? While Irish people in Northern Ireland (part of the wider country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) have just as much documentation or whatever for their Irish nationality within Britain, as you do for yours with the South. Stop stirring.Nationality should not be confused with sentimentality, feeling, or other unobjective criteria
Always up for a compromise. We'll be the NIFA, you can be FAI[R FUX], ie ~ Republic: featuring unionists exceptionally.I'd suggest to avoid confusion with the nation of Ireland, they refer to Northern Ireland in all cases, rather than Ireland (including their football association)
Last edited by Gather round; 03/08/2010 at 9:10 AM.
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