QuoteYou Irishness is a Irishness based on separation EG, separation of the Irish nation.
'Tis a strange sense of nationality alright...
When it comes to how I identify myself politically, that post sums up my own feelings beautifully (though no doubt Ardee Bhoy's fingers are already straining at the keyboard to educate me as to what I do/should/must feel etc)Originally Posted by third policeman
However, whatever one feels on the vexed political questions of "nationality" and "identity" etc, I genuinely feel it is (or should be, at any rate) entirely irrelevant to the debate over footballing eligibility.
For as a Southern GAA fan put it so eloquently on another forum:
"So by virtue of the GFA agreement people can be Irish within* Northern Ireland and have that right secured. So why would they need to play for another sports team, when their Irishness is assured within Northern Ireland? The GFA argument actually works against those who want to play for the Republic"
Otherwise, if representing the ROI at football is somehow essential towards "being Irish", would that mean eg a brother of Darron Gibson who has never played for ROI, is somehow "less Irish" than he? Would someone like to tell eg Gerry Taggart that he is somehow "less Irish" for having played 51 times for NI? (I'd pay good money to see that one!) What about eg Gerry Armstrong? Are his NI caps cancelled out by his also having played Gaelic Football at Croke Park for his club? And where does Martin O'Neill stand on the issue? I mean to say, can he offset his NI caps by his own GAA career? And does his management of Celtic offset his acceptance of an MBE from Her Majesty? Perhaps someone like Kingdom Kerry can solve this conundrum, seeing as he knows everything else about NI (from a distance of 200 miles...)
Of course, there is actually a much simpler solution staring us in the face, if only people would acknowledge it. Namely, there are two Football Associations in Ireland, each with its own territory, jurisdiction and international football team. So that if you are born within the territory of one, that is whom you represent; whereas if born within the territory of the other, then the same applies. For that way, both the IFA and FAI would be treated in exactly the same way as all of the other 206 Member Associations of FIFA, whereby being born within one Associations territory does NOT automatically give someone a choice to represent some other Association (outwith the normal exception of ancestry or residence, deriving from Dual Nationality).
Of course, such a suggestion will no doubt raise the ire of small-minded individuals who cannot see beyond their own petty political prejudices towards the wider interests of sport. Nor do they appear to possess the integrity to acknowledge it when others reconcile their personal political allegiances etc with representing one Irish international football team over another.
Speaking of which, the most recent example comes from this morning, when Damien Johnson issued the following statement on the occasion of his retirement from international football:
“It has been a huge honour for me to have represented Northern Ireland and I have enjoyed many special moments throughout my international career,” said the 31-year-old, who has been capped 56 times for his country.
“I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has helped me during my time with the Northern Ireland team: the managers who I have played under; the backroom staff; all of the players I've played alongside; and the incredible fans for their support.
“It hasn't been an easy decision for me to make but, with the help of my family, I feel it is the best decision for my career.
“I'd particularly like to thank Nigel Worthington for his support and understanding over the last couple of weeks. I wish Nigel and the team every success in the forthcoming European Championships.”Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/nis...#ixzz0v66Xr6OT
Quite honestly, I wouldn't swap the privilege of watching a true Gentleman and Professional like DJ for 10 x Darron "Irish" Gibsons or 10 x Shane "Catholic" Duffys. Indeed, I should probably pity those ROI fans from "the North" who will never feel the pride I and my fellow NI fans feel when 11 players from the same wee bit of the world as theirs, put aside whatever political allegiances they may have and march out to take on all-comers from the rest of the world, win, lose or draw.
* - The GFA specifically includes: "Recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
You Irishness is a Irishness based on separation EG, separation of the Irish nation.
'Tis a strange sense of nationality alright...
You actually come across as being quite a bitter person eg, someone who cannot accept that for many Irish people who live in the north, we are happy to support and play for a team that represents every part of the island, as is the case in every other sport in Ireland. You almost sound like someone who left the country 30 years ago and believe that the old thinking of 'our way or no way' should still be the norm.
Feel no pity eg, the pride of watching lads from Derry, dublin, Cork and beyond come together to represent you on the world stage is indeed a sight to behold and a pleasure that never falters with time.
Really? You see, such a conclusion may only derive from an assumption that ones political outlook supercedes all other badges of identity and further, that to be a "true" Irishman, that political outlook must be that of a Nationalist/Republican/Gael etc.
Whereas this Irishman's "Irishness" is defined by a hell of a sight more than mere politics. Sure, I prefer to see my part of Ireland united with GB, rather than the Republic, but so what? I have many Irish friends who aspire to the reverse and it's no reason for me to think any less of them.
Conversely, I know many "loyal Prods", who never fail to stand for GSTQ or march to The Field on the Twelfth etc, to whom I wouldn't give the time of day.
All of them are Irish as far as I'm concerned, but I know which group I would rather be "united" with - and that has got nothing to do with a line on a map or an Election every five years.
Last edited by EalingGreen; 29/07/2010 at 8:18 PM.
So your Irishness is primarily geographical?
Cas will be announcing their decision of the case brought by the IFA against Daniel Kearns, the FAI & FIFA tomorrow
So its ok for you to decide what nationality you are k- but not alright for other unionists. Anyway - it would seem you are a minority in what you think. According to wiki (2006):
A 2006 report from the Institute of Governance stated that "Three-quarters of Northern Ireland’s Protestants regard themselves as British, but only 12 per cent of Northern Ireland’s Catholics do so. Conversely, a majority of Catholics (65%) regard themselves as Irish, whilst very few Protestants (5%) do likewise" and that "In Northern Ireland, very few respondents identify themselves as both British and Irish.-
75% of Protestants feel to be British; 12% of Catholics;
65% Catholics feel to be Irish; 5% of Protestants.
Institute of Governance, 2006. "National identities in the UK: do they matter?" Briefing No. 16, January 2006. Retrieved from http://www.institute-of-governance.o...riefing_16.pdf on August 24, 2006.
From that GR, don't think there are too many unionists have the same opinion that you do.
Indeed, they probably have (various relatives who researched it have got back as far as the mid 19th so far). But I don't need them to prove how Irish I am.
In an earlier post you had a little dig at Garech de Brun really being Gary Browne. You are right about the Browne bit, but he happened to be christened Garech by Lord Oranmore, his father (longest serving member of the House of Lords). I suppose it would shock you to know that the current Lord Rosse (whose half brother married the Queen's sister) is actually called Brendan (Brendan was an Irish saint!).That's the problem with your understanding, it's exclusive and unnecessarily restrictive. 'The Irish nation' suggests there's only one as defined by you.
Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit about how British people / those with British heritage have fitted into the 'Irish' nation without proclaiming how restrictive our notion of 'irishness' is.
You could start with Garech - a piece from Vanity Fair called 'A Little Brit Different'. http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/fe...200801#slide=7
His father, Lord Oranmore seems to have been even more interesting - here is a link to his obit in the Telegraph -
"His 100th birthday was celebrated with a family party at the Ritz. He was glad to receive a telegram from the President of Ireland, but disappointed by the card from the Queen, which had a large photograph of her on the front and seemed to him undignified. "Horrible," he muttered as he stuffed it back into the envelope.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...nd-Browne.html
It's acceptable for you to use dual-nationality to determine eligibility (yet you refer to us as "beggars" for using this selection approach) but not acceptable to use nationality, in the singular sense, as a basis for eligibility? Indeed that's a very simple and reasoned solution.....
Do you truly feel that nationality should not be the defining principle of international football team eligibility? Or just in the case of Ireland?
Weak point.They don't 'need' to play for Ireland in order to have their 'Irishness' assured. The point is, that their Irish nationality allows them to play for the representative teams of the association governing football in Ireland, that being the FAI.Originally posted by 'Southern GAA fan'
So by virtue of the GFA agreement people can be Irish within* Northern Ireland and have that right secured. So why would they need to play for another sports team, when their Irishness is assured within Northern Ireland? The GFA argument actually works against those who want to play for the Republic
So, basically, you would like to see FIFA's rules regarding international football team eligibility changed so that instead of being defined primarily by nationality, it is defined by territory alone.
Of course, any criticism of or objection to your proposal must come from an ignorant individual who cares not for the 'wider interests of sport'. It couldn't possibly make sense to any rational individual. That was sarcasm, just in case you're struggling with the interpretation.
Who is objecting to Johnson playing for Northern Ireland and being happy to have done so? Anyway, the snide, but obvious implication here is that the likes of Duffy and Gibson are not 'true Gentlemen' or professionals, which is a bit sad. Just get over it.
I wouldn't like to feel I'm "bitter" - I just see it as sticking up for my own team's interests, on this site in the face of concerted opposition.
As for other people in NI, I have long agreed (and stated) that people may support whichever team they like, for whatever reason or none. However, whilst supporting a team must be a matter of choice, playing for a team most emphatically is not - otherwise there would be no eligibility criteria.
Therefore if we must have criteria, then they should be fair and consistent. And it is undeniable that as presently framed, FIFA's Statutes discriminate against the IFA, as the only Member of 208 whose Territory and Jurisdiction is compromised, to the benefit of a rival, and stemming from a political policy of a foreign Government over which it (IFA or FIFA) has no influence.
As for other sports, I couldn't give a stuff what they do - why should I, or any other football fan?
Leaving aside the technical observation that I didn't leave "the" (i.e. my) country 30 years ago(!), all I ask is that "our" way be exactly the same as that of every other international country within FIFA.
Especially since if that way is good enough for Damien Johnson, Sammy Clingan, Chris Baird or Niall McGinn etc, then I see no reason why it should not be good enough for everyone in NI. Of course, there may be some people whose politics clearly supercedes their view of sport, in which case, they don't have to play for NI if they don't want. However, I simply do not see why someone from eg Derry should be permitted an alternative "choice" on account of their politics, whereas someone from eg Bilbao, Tallinn, East Jerusalem or Pristina etc is not.
You see, if I followed your principle in allowing my politics to inform my footballing allegiance, then my equivalent would be to try to take pride in watching lads from Cardiff, Edinburgh, London and Belfast representing me on the world stage and as I've said before on this site, a United Kingdom team holds no greater attraction to me than a United Ireland team.
Indeed, if we must reduce the debate down to crude simplifications (like eg Shane "I'm a Catholic, so obviously I want to play for Ireland" Duffy), I am immensely proud that my team is made up equally of RC/Nationalist and Prod/Unionist Irishmen, whereas yours derives solely from one subset.
And we're the "bigots" in all this...
Notwithstanding that my Irishness is actually an amalgam of many things, I guess that Geography is as good a starting point as any.
Which does not contradict the point I was actually making, which is that we can all be equally and authentically Irish, without having all to share the same, prescribed political outlook. Which amongst other things, explains why when I can be both Irish (geographical, cultural, heritage etc) and British (political) at the same time.
You are misrepresenting what I said, whether deliberately or unconsciously I do nor know.
Think of it this way. If a footballer born eg in Paris (the territory of the FFF) wishes to represent Algeria, it is not sufficient that he may be able to persuade the Algerian Government to grant him Algerian (i.e. Dual) Nationality. He also has to demonstrate either an Algerian parent/grandparent, or have resided in the country for a minimum period. And this principle applies to 206 of the other 207 Member Associations of FIFA.
Whereas with the 208th (IFA), someone born within our territory may represent another Association, without having to meet the same additional criteria.
This is both inequitable and discriminatory and I would like to think that CAS would recognise this, even if FIFA won't (though I don't hold out much hope).
Oh well.
Again, you compare apple and pears. You are comparing someone who seeks dual nationality with someone who doesn't.
So basically your Irish, but see most of Ireland as foreign?
Don't you take pride in all the London lads representing your team at the moment?
And all the other parts of England & Scotland;Just cut out the middle-man and have a GB team.....
Of course "nationality" has to be at the heart of eligibility. However, you persistently ignore my contention that footballing "nationality" is not the same as political "nationality". Otherwise, why would FIFA recognise 208 "nations" (footballing), whereas the UN only recognises 192 "nations" (political)?
Therefore if FIFA is going to abrogate to itself the right to define what is a footballing nation (which it does), then all I ask is that it treat all 208 of them exactly the same (which it doesn't).
Otherwise you end up with the situation whereby Governments' (political) definition of "Nationality" override FIFA's; which might be fine except that FIFA resists such a notion when eg Qatar or Cape Verde tries it (i.e. for Brazilian-born footballers), but permit it when the Irish Republic's Government tries it (i.e. for NI-born footballers).
Except that that "Irish Nationality" on which you rely is a purely political construct, from a political Government, contrived for reasons which have nothing to do with football.
I contend that FIFA should assert its own definition of "Nationality", which is a solely footballing construct (eg permits Wales, Hong Kong, Macao, Faroes, Palestine etc, even though there are no such politically recognised "Nations") and which includes NI equally alongside ROI.
And that being so, NI/IFA should be entitled to exactly the same territorial integrity as that of the ROI/FAI (and every other Member Association of FIFA).
Otherwise by your reasoning, those footballers born within the territory of the CFB who have subsequently acquired Qatari Nationality, entirely legally and legitimately, should be entitled to represent the Association governing football in Qatar, that being the QFA.
(Btw, the FAI is not the "Association governing football in Ireland [sic]", it is the Association governing football in the Irish Republic)
No, nor is that what I said.
I'm stating that the starting point for international eligibility should be that of Territory, more specifically the territory of a Member Association of FIFA. Thereafter, the player in question should also have the appropriate (political) Nationality.
And where someone possesses a (political) Nationality outwith that of the Association's territory within which he was born, then he should also be required to demonstrate a suitable "connection" (ancestry or residence) with whichever other Nationality (political and footballing) he wishes to represent. Which is how it works for 207 of the 208 "Territories" within FIFA.
If the cap fits...
In the meantime, I am genuinely open to any sensible, rational rebuttal of what I am contending but with respect, you have not supplied one yet.
(Note that I have done you the courtesy of replying to all your points in turn, whether my replies are valid or otherwise. Whereas you have "cherry-picked from my posts, misrepresenting or distorting as you've gone along)
No-one, but once again, that was not my point.
In fact, my point was directed to the likes of Ardee Bhoy, Den Perry, Kingdom Kerry etc, who in castigating the NI team and its fans as all being "anti-Irish, Union Jack-waving bigots" etc, are clearly implying that anyone who plays for NI cannot be truly and authentically "Irish" etc, which must be deeply insulting to players I cited, such as Taggart, Armstrong, O'Neill and Johnson etc.
Of course, if you want to join in with AB, DP and KK etc in subcribing to such a prejudiced and intolerant view, then go ahead.
I hadn't intended to conflate directly the notions of "Gentlemanliness" and "Professionalism" from DJ to Duffy and Gibson, though in fairness I can see why you might infer that.
Rather, I was expressing my admiration for DJ (amongst other things for those two exemplary qualities of his), whilst disparaging Duffy and Gibson, for the way they are effectively allowing their political outlook to inform their footballing position, including disprespecting their erstwhile teammates in the various NI teams they chose to represent, then reject.
And in Duffy's case particularly, although he qualifies entirely legitimately for ROI, and I wished him well in that at the time, he greatly compounded his offence when it emerged that at the very same time as he and his Da were publicly professing their gratitutude and affection for NI/IFA for all the help they were giving him etc, at the same time they were privately negotiating to switch to the FAI/ROI.
And when he subsequently tried to justify his deceit by introducing religion into the equation ("Obviously as a Catholic I want to play for Ireland etc"), I lost the last vestige of my former respect for him.
P.S. If you are truly concerned for my ability to "get over it", don't worry, I accept that both those players have made their choice. But I'll be fcuked if I have to respect them for what they did, the reasons why they did it, and the way in which it was done.
Last edited by EalingGreen; 29/07/2010 at 11:32 PM.
I understand the point you are making, which essentially repeats that of FIFA.
However, I do not see why in principle FIFA should distinguish between someone who happens automatically to have another Nationality, from someone who seeks to assert/apply for another Nationality to which he is legitimately entitled.
Last edited by EalingGreen; 29/07/2010 at 11:24 PM.
I am one of 6 million Irish people, five million of whom have/ascribe to a different political opinion to mine.
Consequently, their Passport is also different from mine, so in that narrow sense, I suppose we are "foreign" to each other.
So Congratulations! Award yourself a Gold Star for having "caught me out", then go to bed, otherwise your mother will be scolding you for staying up late...
I take pride in the fact that with one exception*, my team is made up of players who were either born in NI, or have at least one parent/grandparent born in NI.
* - The one exception being, of course, Maik Taylor, who qualified under an earlier rule, acceptable to FIFA, which we (IFA/SFA/FAW/FA) have since deleted. Of course, after 80+ caps during 12 years of exemplary and committed service, Big Maik is every bit as much one of the "Green And White Army" as eg Tony Cascarino was one of the "Boys in Green".
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