Player eligibility row

[dantheman]

The new OWC fans banner for the glamour tie against Albania has been unveiled:

[third policeman]

And wouldnt it be preferable to have a GB team to represent the whole Island of Britain instead of 3 or 4 teams..

Yes it would.

[Sinéad K]

With regards to the whole nationality thing, before the GFA we had dual citizenship, I had an Irish passport in the 1970's. There was quite a good article in the Irish News a few years ago about this, specifically about dual nationality & I see the Irish News has run again with the same kind of story after Duffy has made his choice.

The lad is only 17, give him a break.

[The Fly]

if the GFA is irrelevant, then explain to me how a player, born in the North, with no family connection to the Republic in the previous 2 generations, could play for the Republic before the GFA

tets, Mr. Parker is half-right. The GFA is indeed irrelevant in this dispute.

The only reason why players born in Northern Ireland could not play for the Republic of Ireland in international football, was the "gentleman's agreement" that existed between the FAI and the IFA, which precluded them from doing so. That agreement no longer exists, rightfully so in my view.

Nationality is somewhat of a red-herring here as people born in Northern Ireland have always had or been eligible for Irish citizenship.

[elroy]

tets, Mr. Parker is half-right. The GFA is indeed irrelevant in this dispute.

The only reason why players born in Northern Ireland could not play for the Republic of Ireland in international football, was the "gentleman's agreement" that existed between the FAI and the IFA, which precluded them from doing so. That agreement no longer exists, rightfully so in my view.

Nationality is somewhat of a red-herring here as people born in Northern Ireland have always had or been eligible for Irish citizenship.

Must say I wasnt aware of this, so basically Martin O'Neill, Jennings and others technically qualified to play for ROI. It was solely this "gentlemans agreement" that stopped them from doing so.

[The Fly]

Must say I wasnt aware of this, so basically Martin O'Neill, Jennings and others technically qualified to play for ROI. It was solely this "gentlemans agreement" that stopped them from doing so.

Correct.

[tetsujin1979]

I also wasn't aware of any agreement, previous debates about this on the forum had led me to believe it was the GFA that changed the status quo

[Gather round]

Anything that the team can do under FIFA rules should be pursued

FIFA rules mean that you could lose an international player (of any age) to another country, similar to the James McCarthy example I mentioned. Would you be as relaxed if that happened?

Why would any Irish man play for a country that flys the union jack, plays GSTQ or has a crown on its flag?

Er, because it's part of Ireland (the clue's in the name).

I think there are 2 completely separate issues being debated here at the same time...I'm not sure if there is actually any debate here in response to question 1

Agreed. Although there's pretty much 100% agreement on the first here, and even grudging acceptance among NI fans.

if a player was born in the 6 counties, wants to play for the Rep and hasn't previously played for NI, then by all means we should pick him. Partly because we're allowed to and partly because I believe that person is every bit as Irish as I am

All NI players (except Maik) and pretty much all the fans are as Irish as you are.

The worst thing about the new rule is it means there will be even more Clinton Morrissons and Maik Taylors in the future

Can't speak for Morrison, but the Taylor example (where Brits born outside the country can declare for either E, S, W or NI) no longer applies.

What the IFA need to do is to try and entice the nationalist population to support the NI team. I don't know how they will manage to do such a thing but until they do this is going to continue to happen

They are already doing so. Of course a large majority of nationalist fans in NI support the RoI. Many are content to follow NI as well, as their second team; a minority support NI alone. Whatever the IFA and NI fans do, some players locally will prefer to play for the South; I think almost all NI fans accept that, and some (me included) have no problem with it. The issue is really whether individuals should be able to play for two different teams.

Must say I wasnt aware of this, so basically Martin O'Neill, Jennings and others technically qualified to play for ROI. It was solely this "gentlemans agreement" that stopped them from doing so

Hardly solely, was it? No-one press ganged them into playing.

Sinead, Newryrep and the others are right about the availability of RoI passports to people from NI. When I lived in Dublin I was visiting a mate who worked at Iveagh House, and got chatting briefly to Seamus Mallon who was there renewing one for his daughter. I've no idea whether she had any parents or grandparents born in the South, but it wasn't really relevant.

[Cymro]

As a relatively neutral outsider, I will say that the rules as they are seem to rather hand NI the short straw. I think there should be no special exception to normal eligibility rules for Ireland (both associations), though I admit that also Northern Ireland should stop playing God Save the Queen if their team is to be considered truly cross-community.

That's my dau ceiniog's worth, and I'm only saying it once - not getting into any messy debates here.

[The Fly]

I also wasn't aware of any agreement, previous debates about this on the forum had led me to believe it was the GFA that changed the status quo

Technically speaking, under FIFA's rules players born in Northern Ireland have always been eligible to play for the Republic of Ireland. A "gentleman's agreement" had been reached between the FAI and IFA in 1950, whereby neither Association would select players from each others territory. This agreement became null and void when Darron Gibson received his first international cap.

The issue of nationality is a red herring. This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland. This nationality qualification already comes under the existing eligibility criteria established by FIFA.

[Gather round]

Edited

[Gather round]

As a relatively neutral outsider, I will say that the rules as they are seem to rather hand NI the short straw

I don't think we can complain too much if the 42% who want to be part of another country also ideally would prefer to support/ play for its football teams. Or that we have a limited pool to choose from; that's an inevitability in a small country. On the other hand, Liechtenstein, Faroes and Malta etc. seem to manage. So as above I'm arguing merely that playing for one country as an adult should prevent you later playing for another.

I admit that also Northern Ireland should stop playing God Save the Queen if their team is to be considered truly cross-community

I don't like it and would change tomorrow. But in practice, a lot of people would still grumble that it wasn't cross-community. Remember that many of them, well represented on this thread, think that the NI team should be abolished. But iechyd da to you too.

This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland

Correct me if wrong, but doesn't the Constitution (27th amendment) limit this to anyone born to an Irish parent?

[backstothewall]

only if that player had parents or grandparents born within the Republic, which would qualify him for a passport.
As I stated, it doesn't apply in Duffy's case because his father is from Donegal, but it does apply in the case of Gibson.

In future the GFA is going to become more and more relevant for players born in the North, but who want to play for the Republic.

It certainly is. Even before the GFA I would have qualified for the Republic, as despite all my grandparents being born in the north, at least one was born before partition, which entitled me to an Irish passport. But as time and generations go by more and more will be relying on the GFA.

If only i wasn't rubbish I could have taken advantage of that fact.

[DannyInvincible]

Correct me if wrong, but doesn't the Constitution (27th amendment) limit this to anyone born to an Irish parent?

The purpose of this amendment was to prevent non-nationals from arriving on the island of Ireland to give birth to a child in order to secure Irish citizenship for that child. This Irish citizenship would have given the child the right to reside anywhere within the EU and, in turn, the parent the right to reside with it.

It had no bearing on Irish nationals in Northern Ireland though. All those born on the island with a parent entitled to Irish citizenship by virtue of being born on the island were unaffected.

This gives an overview of the reasoning behind it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-...eland#Overview

Today a constitutional right to citizenship still exists for anyone who is both:
-Born on the island of Ireland (including its islands and seas).
-Born to at least one parent who is, or is entitled to be, an Irish citizen.

[DannyInvincible]

Would it be fair to assume that the passing of the GFA had a bearing on the FAI's willingness to by-pass this "gentleman's agreement" in that the British government along with the population in Northern Ireland formally agreed that all those born on the island were entitled to Irish citizenship, whereas they hadn't previously, which would have made such an action as the FAI calling a northern-born player up appear hostile and somewhat irredentist with a flagrant disregard for what was then still under dispute as far as international relations were concerned?

[Newryrep]

Can I just state that the flag and the anthem of Northern Ireland are not an issue at all and anybody who says it is is likely talking ******. It is the fact that there is a Northern Ireland, I have absolutely no allegiance to that state nor would ever describe myself as Northern Irish - the flag and the anthem issue is a total red herring. At least we can be honest

[seanfhear]

Because of the circumstances on our unfortunately divided Island it is my belief that any Irish Man north or South should play for the team of their choosing.

Kind of crazy to have supported the RoI team all of your life and if you have the desire and ability not to be able to play for them. The same also holds for NI.

[Scram]

Eh, no!!!

[elroy]

Because of the circumstances on our unfortunately divided Island it is my belief that any Irish Man north or South should play for the team of their choosing.

Kind of crazy to have supported the RoI team all of your life and if you have the desire and ability not to be able to play for them. The same also holds for NI.

I agree, of course from a NI perspective it is very unlikely that they will get too many lads born in ROI who will declare for NI whereas (ROI) we are more likely to benefit.
Having said that imo, the rules as they stand are correct. My only suggestion for change would be that an Under 21 competitive cap ties you to that country and not let the topsy turvy scenarios we are left with under the current rules.

[Nedser]

Fifa Statute 15 refers to nationality, not passports.

Yes, but you have to prove your nationality, and the standard way of doing so is with a passport. Another way would be a birth cert, but showing birth cert proving you were born in Belfast would not in itself be likey to satisfy FIFA that your nationality lies with ROI. The obvious assumption, in fact, would be that you are eligible for NI. Before the GFA, the states of Ireland* and the UK disagreed about the citizenship of people born in the 6 counties. Ireland took the view they were Irish, while the UK took the view that they were British. If anything, I think FIFA would have sided with the UK on that, as the international community generally accepts they hold sovereignty over NI. Therefore, before the GFA, I don't believe anyone born in NI would have been allowed to play for the ROI without holding an Irish passport. Now both countries agree that anyone born in the 6 counties can choose to hold either nationality or both, so now FIFA presumably would require no additional documentation other than a birth cert. The GFA is certainly not entirely irrelevant in any case.

Another problem with you referring to FIFA statutes and "nationality" is that there is no such thing in law as "Northern Irish" nationality (or English, Scottish or Welsh for that matter), and so proving that you hold such nationality is actually impossible. The special dispensation to the 4 UK teams to field international teams despite not being independent countries really muddies the waters in any debate of this sort. Someone previously implied that ROI has a special advantage here - on the contrary it's the 4 "home nations" that do.

* No apologies for using "Ireland" in this context as that's what the state is called, ROI was a FIFA invented name for the football team.