Player eligibility row

[Greenforever]

Difficult issue, but my concern is not so much with the poaching or the principle, but the potential implications for football in Ireland if more "nationalist" players in the North opt for RoI. On one level I am happy to see Duffy playing for my "preferred" Irish team (That OK IFK?) but it would be unhealthy to say the least if our international teams had even more pronounced sectarian identities. I know its a chestnut and total red rag to the likes of EG and GR, but an all Ireland football team would surely be preferable to two international teams predicated on political / religous loyalties rather than their territorial jurisdictions.

And wouldnt it be preferable to have a GB team to represent the whole Island of Britain instead of 3 or 4 teams..

[Drumcondra 69er]

Is there really a need for another thread on this topic, it's been debated to death, and I mean to death on here many times.

Or was the old thread finally humanely destroyed?

[yapster]

Of course, if you are born on the Island of Ireland no matter your creed or color you are entitled to play for the you prefer either Ireland A or Ireland B.

[Mr_Parker]

Now I know well the GFA allows all persons in the North to hold either passport,

It's got nothing to do with the GFA or passports. Born Irish play Irish as per the FIFA Statutes that apply to all associations.

and I know it can be a little funny to see the Norn Iron lads get all upset, and I know that most Northern Catholics do feel more affinity to the ROI than the North.

It's got nothing to do with religion either. It's about nationality.

BUT

Should we, for the sake of the game, and in the genuine spirit of fairness quit poaching their players?
I mean Shane Duffy sounds like a decent prospect, but for Gods sakes the IFA have practically raised him in the international game. For him to then turn around, give them 2 fingers and say "thanks lads, i'm off" is just plain wrong.
Gibson the same.

You do realise that the same is done by associations all across the world, including the IFA. And you want to deny people their nationality?

People here were giving out yards at the cheek of the SFA to try and recruit McGeady and McCarthy a while back, after we "raised him"
Well this is the very same......
Except when we are the thieves, its ok? But when the Scots do it....its not?

See above.

One of these days a lad from say, Dundalk, with Northern Parents might decide he wants over there after coming through our ranks. Would love to see our reaction to that! How dare he! Traitor etc etc

Funny you should mention that, but my father did exactly that albeit not at full international level.

I realise Duffy has ROI parents. I know this. But it still doesnt change the fact that the IFA looked after him since being a kid and this is ultimately a betrayal.

Never stopped the IFA or others doing similar with players and Duffy is eligible because he is Irish, not because of his father.

What if this starts a trend. What now if all Catholic lads decided they want to play for us....
The NI team would collapse. Do we really want that?? I dont.

Again what has religion got to do with this. As for collapsing....!

Players like Mal Donaghy, Gerry Armstrong, Martin O'Neill, Alan McKnight, Pat Jennings all played for the North and did so with pride. Lennon is the obvious exception, but its not like all other Catholics were treated badly... they werent!!

That was their choice. There are plenty of current examples too, but that cannot be used as an argument to deny someone his nationality.

If the ROI didnt go actively seeking to recruit players from NI this wouldnt happen. We need to stop it. Now if a player declares for us of his own free will, then thats different. But for us to go recruiting players from different associations is just plain wrong, i dont care how good he is or isnt.

As stated, the FAI are not unique in their actions......Read Worthingtons own words

[Gather round]

Should we, for the sake of the game, and in the genuine spirit of fairness quit poaching their players?

No, just agree that you won't select anyone who has already played for another country at u-19, u-21 or full (friendly) level after their 18th birthday. I mean, even within the rather hysterical reaction on OWC etc., most seem to be saying that they accept qualification through parent/ grandparent as well as residence, so clearly there's a basis for compromise.

One of these days a lad from say, Dundalk, with Northern Parents might decide he wants over there after coming through our ranks. Would love to see our reaction to that! How dare he! Traitor etc etc

One of these days a lad from say, Tralee, with a Northern grandparent who moved South as an infant 60 or 70 years ago might do so. Or at the opposite extreme, a kid from the toughest unionist estate in east Belfast might succumb to Gio's seductive patter, In either case I imagine there'd be some exaggerated outrage.

What now if all Catholic lads decided they want to play for us....The NI team would collapse. Do we really want that?? I dont

Thanks for that, but steady on. The RoI side didn't collapse when it included seven or eight players from Britain- and with current trends it might end up in that situation again.

As a related aside, Ireland's two best-known cricketers (from Dublin and Bray) are pleased to play for England for the sake of their own careers, and no-one doubts Northern Ireland players in the side would do the same if offered.

[Gather round]

Perhaps this will be the wake up call that the northern authorities need. You should read the vitriol on the OWC website, basically childish insults just f**k him and f**k the FAI (and everyone else). There is little self reflection!

Agreed. Mindless abuse against individuals and the football authorities, no self-awareness at all. It's terrible.

He turned up for the Italy match and by all accounts wasn't treated very well

You what? He's a 17 year old boy chosen in the (admittedly-weakened) squad to play the World champions. Short of lauding him as the new Pele, Ronaldo and Rooney rolled into one, how much more extravagantly could they reasonably have treated the bloke?

I know its a chestnut and total red rag to the likes of EG and GR, but an all Ireland football team would surely be preferable to two international teams predicated on political / religous loyalties rather than their territorial jurisdictions

Zzz. You've already got an all-Ireland team, padded out with Englishmen and Scots. And it's still third-rate. If you really want to merge with someone, try England. At least then you'll be able to watch their best players, not just the journeymen.

I hope you still don't mind if we just belt out GSTQ and glory be to the Empire, it's our solemn right to do that you know

Stop stirring, or we'll send our imperial navy to Keflavik to kick off the Cod War again. Better fortify your igloo.

if you go about tying them down any earlier I reckon there's a real chance that it would result in a race to the bottom, capping all eligible players, just to get in there first. That's not going to solve anything

Disagree. We ought reasonably to be confident that an adult footballer accepting a cap at u-19, u-21 or full friendly level won't then go off to play for another country. If they don't want that cap- whether through loyalty to their other joint nationality, or because they think it potentially better for their career, or any other reason, they can always turn it down.

And wouldnt it be preferable to have a GB team to represent the whole Island of Britain instead of 3 or 4 teams

Er, no. You'll struggle to find many fans in Britain (or anywhere else) agreeing with that.

Of course, if you are born on the Island of Ireland no matter your creed or color you are entitled to play for the you prefer either Ireland A or Ireland B

Great, Oscar Wilde's on the thread. Qualify for more than one tournament in eight funny boy, then you can have a B-team.

There are plenty of current examples too, but that cannot be used as an argument to deny someone his nationality

Generally fair points, Mr P. I don't think there's any reasonable argument to deny someone his nationality (or multiple nationalities if applying), merely that you should only be able to play for one international football set-up as an adult.

[northerncelt]

should be stop "recruituing" players from Cork? Or Galway? Ofcourse not... that would be rudiculous....

[danonion]

I appreciate the few Northern Ireland football supporters who come on to our site and make well written and level headed posts. That however is where my appreciation of Norther Ireland football stops. Norther football is still sectarian, Nationalists were made unwelcome in Windsor (gag) Park for decades. If the situation has improved now so be it, but it doesn't legislate for the carry-on that took place there for decades.

Why should we care if we take players from the North who feel they are Irish. Should that lad be stuck playing for the second team on the island just because he played underage level for them?

I hope more players follow him.

[backstothewall]

I would echo what Mr Parker said except to add that a lot of lads play underage for the north cos its handier. At u14, u15 etc people may not be across the water, and even if they are playing for the north allows them to come home to their parents house etc.

And it has to be said that at underage levels, a lot of kids aren't that politically aware, but might be later in life. And that someone playing u18 football is still legally a child, and can't be asked to make a decision of that magnitude when they propably wouldn't legally be allowed to get married or buy a house

[Gather round]

should be stop "recruituing" players from Cork? Or Galway? Ofcourse not... that would be rudiculous....

If the Corkman or Galwegian already has an u-21 cap for Lithuania or Nigeria, no you shouldn't cap them. (Just a theoretical example, I don't know of any such players).

If the situation has improved now so be it, but it doesn't legislate for the carry-on that took place there for decades

It has improved, as confirmed by home and visiting fans and their football authoriities. No-one's clkaiming that legislates (overrides?) what happened previously, but you can't live in the past. Let's move on.

Why should we care if we take players from the North who feel they are Irish

All Northern Ireland players are Irish by birth or ancestry, with the exception of Maik Taylor- and he's hailed by fans as a proud Ulsterman by adoption

I think you should care that the current rules allow players to play for two different teams, it's unreasonable. As it would have been if say, Craig Levein had persuaded James McCarthy to play for Scotland despite all his games for your U-21 side.

Should that lad be stuck playing for the second team on the island just because he played underage level for them?

If he played (ie, decided) as an adult, yes. It's only reasonable. They're two third-rate teams at the moment, btw. Look at the Euro 2012 seedings.

And that someone playing u18 football is still legally a child, and can't be asked to make a decision of that magnitude when they propably wouldn't legally be allowed to get married or buy a house

I've specified 18th birthday as a fair threshold. Before which you can marry in Britain- flit to Stranraer or Gretna and you don't even need a parent's permission.

[awec]

I appreciate the few Northern Ireland football supporters who come on to our site and make well written and level headed posts. That however is where my appreciation of Norther Ireland football stops. Norther football is still sectarian, Nationalists were made unwelcome in Windsor (gag) Park for decades. If the situation has improved now so be it, but it doesn't legislate for the carry-on that took place there for decades.

Why should we care if we take players from the North who feel they are Irish. Should that lad be stuck playing for the second team on the island just because he played underage level for them?

I hope more players follow him.

What a load of crap? Football is sectarian? Rubbish.

Nationalists not welcome in Windsor park? Yea, tell that to my catholic / nationalist mates that I attend the games with regularly.

I understand you may be on the wind up, but all this talk of Windsor Park and ni games being some loyalist prod fest is a myth.

[awec]

There wasn't a murmour here when Kane and O'Connor returned, at least I don't remember any. I think most would have wished them well.
We are much more understanding about the fragilities of youth. I don't give much value to bitterness and begrudgery sentiments.
Duffy like most nationalist yewts in the North grew up supporting the Republic.

I am mystified as to how on earth the IFA hope to grab the attention of Nationalist yewts with attempting the stunt of a memory wipe and cough cough, I hope you still don't mind if we just belt out GSTQ and glory be to the Empire, it's our solemn right to do that you know.

But more than all that, I would blame this man for the IFA's misfortunes

You mean nationalist youths like Paddy McCourt, Nial McGinn and old day nationalists like Pat Jennings?

Or do you conveniently ignore them as it doesn't fit in with your fantasy of us being a bunch of bigots?

[MariborKev]

It's got nothing to do with religion either. It's about nationality.

Bang on.

I'd be far from a rabid Nationalist, but that is the key point for me.

[Gather round]

To be fair to those equating Irish nationalist/ Roman Catholic/ RoI fan and Ulster unionist/ Protestant/ NI fan, I'd guess it's just a quick shorthand. Rather than a suggestion that we're all religious maniacs.

[MariborKev]

Too right GR

My family consists of

Father: Brought up as a NI fan-stopped going to NI games in the late 70s early 80s after a a few scares. Had always followed as well ROI and then started going to ROI games again. Now at all home and away games.
Me: ROI fan since I was a kid
Younger brother: NI fan

We were taken to Windsor in the late 90s to see the games when the ROI were away from home and NI were home. The wee brother just had to be awkward!

[Crosby87]

Anything that the team can do under FIFA rules should be pursued.

[osarusan]

Perhaps this will be the wake up call that the northern authorities need. You should read the vitriol on the OWC website, basically childish insults just f**k him and f**k the FAI (and everyone else). There is little self reflection as to why this is occuring on an increasingly regular basis. Some acknowledge the points, but try to play them down. The evidence speaks for itself. Maybe some good will come of it from a NI point of view.

Did you develop your writing style over on OWC? Your comments on the Shane Duffy thread-

Its tough for some NI fans to accept that this can happen, as that's the way they were brought up (with the divine right to dictate to others what they can do).

Duffy will enjoy playing in the modern European city that is Dublin, where the jackboot of the Orangeman cannot trample over his hopes and dreams

[kingdomkerry]

Now I know well the GFA allows all persons in the North to hold either passport, and I know it can be a little funny to see the Norn Iron lads get all upset, and I know that most Northern Catholics do feel more affinity to the ROI than the North.

BUT

Should we, for the sake of the game, and in the genuine spirit of fairness quit poaching their players?
I mean Shane Duffy sounds like a decent prospect, but for Gods sakes the IFA have practically raised him in the international game. For him to then turn around, give them 2 fingers and say "thanks lads, i'm off" is just plain wrong.
Gibson the same.

People here were giving out yards at the cheek of the SFA to try and recruit McGeady and McCarthy a while back, after we "raised him"
Well this is the very same......
Except when we are the thieves, its ok? But when the Scots do it....its not?

One of these days a lad from say, Dundalk, with Northern Parents might decide he wants over there after coming through our ranks. Would love to see our reaction to that! How dare he! Traitor etc etc

I realise Duffy has ROI parents. I know this. But it still doesnt change the fact that the IFA looked after him since being a kid and this is ultimately a betrayal.

What if this starts a trend. What now if all Catholic lads decided they want to play for us....
The NI team would collapse. Do we really want that?? I dont.

Players like Mal Donaghy, Gerry Armstrong, Martin O'Neill, Alan McKnight, Pat Jennings all played for the North and did so with pride. Lennon is the obvious exception, but its not like all other Catholics were treated badly... they werent!!

If the ROI didnt go actively seeking to recruit players from NI this wouldnt happen. We need to stop it. Now if a player declares for us of his own free will, then thats different. But for us to go recruiting players from different associations is just plain wrong, i dont care how good he is or isnt.

on a side note, as an evertonian, i think it will end up a lot of fuss over very little. The lad is a decent player, but he is not the next Paul McGrath or Jimmy Quinn!!

No. Saying we should not pick a player from Belfast/Derry who wishes to represent his counrtry is like saying a player from Dublin/Cork should not get to represent his country. Why would any Irish man play for a country that flys the union jack, plays GSTQ or has a crown on its flag?

[Nedser]

I think there are 2 completely separate issues being debated here at the same time:
1. Should the FAI stop picking players who are born in the 6 counties?
2. Should players be allowed to represent one country up to U21 level and then another at senior level?

I'm not sure if there is actually any debate here in response to question 1, which is the question that was posed up front! There are numerous people arguing both ways in response to question 2 though.

My view in response to both questions is "no". In other words, if a player was born in the 6 counties, wants to play for the Rep and hasn't previously played for NI, then by all means we should pick him. Partly because we're allowed to and partly because I believe that person is every bit as Irish as I am. If he has already played for any other country at underage level though, then I believe he should be committed to that country.

That said, the FIFA rules allow it to happen, so it will happen, and among many different countries in the world. Most western countries are so cosmopolitan now that it's basically the norm for players to be eligible for more than one country. Let's be realistic anyway, this rule is rarely going to result in players defecting between the two Irelands after U21 level. A much more common scenario will be English born players who really want to play for England, get some underage caps, but then realise later on that they're not going to make the senior team. Then they'll get the "Who do you think you are?" team in to try and work out which part of Ireland their adoptive father's step mum was born in .....

The worst thing about the new rule is it means there will be even more Clinton Morrissons and Maik Taylors in the future.

[kingdomkerry]

I think there are 2 completely separate issues being debated here at the same time:
1. Should the FAI stop picking players who are born in the 6 counties?
2. Should players be allowed to represent one country up to U21 level and then another at senior level?

I'm not sure if there is actually any debate here in response to question 1, which is the question that was posed up front! There are numerous people arguing both ways in response to question 2 though.

My view in response to both questions is "no". In other words, if a player was born in the 6 counties, wants to play for the Rep and hasn't previously played for NI, then by all means we should pick him. Partly because we're allowed to and partly because I believe that person is every bit as Irish as I am. If he has already played for any other country at underage level though, then I believe he should be committed to that country.

That said, the FIFA rules allow it to happen, so it will happen, and among many different countries in the world. Most western countries are so cosmopolitan now that it's basically the norm for players to be eligible for more than one country. Let's be realistic anyway, this rule is rarely going to result in players defecting between the two Irelands after U21 level. A much more common scenario will be English born players who really want to play for England, get some underage caps, but then realise later on that they're not going to make the senior team. Then they'll get the "Who do you think you are?" team in to try and work out which part of Ireland their adoptive father's step mum was born in .....

The worst thing about the new rule is it means there will be even more Clinton Morrissons and Maik Taylors in the future.

1. No
2. Yes