'pologies, Adam, I only had a few ales.Originally Posted by dahamsta
I didn't say anything had to happen to the clubs. The GAA has plenty of clubs, and a county based league.
(Not that I have much respect for the clubs. Most Irish clubs could only win a league if football was taken out of the equation, and they had to compete in a triathlon of Infighting, Strutting and Corruption.)
nothings going to happen anyway so this is all sort of irrelivant.. clubs need to get their own houses in order first and foremost. The only thing the fai should be doing currently is enforcing their rules and possibly investing in helping the clubs get proper infrastructures in place be it youth academys or improving stadia. everything else really is up to the clubs.. and i do agree with the argument that the league needs more exposure but at the moment all the fai have to sell to the public is a league in turmoil..
While I don't disagree that nothing's going to happen, I genuinely believe that the league as it stands can't and won't work. If it could, it would by now.
but it does work fine (bar the fact its a 10 team league but thats not what this is about) for clubs that obey the rules but there put at a huge disadvantage by the clubs who carry on chasing titles and european success when they cant aford too.. clubs have to be more realistic.. if the clubs that were there payed more attention to their youth set up and creating links with the local leagues and communities while investing in ceating a good match day experience then the success will follow but people here always want a quick fix.. The truth is there is no bloody quick fix
Clubs don't obey the rules. The FAI doesn't implement the rules. How is that "working"?
and that is the problem things would be ok IF they did.. i said as much im my previous post..
the problem is that the big clubs dont obey the rules so the small ones suffer..
the fai are eginning to get a backbone finally.. but to little at the moment
In that case though (and I agree with you that that's the main problem), the solution is to start implementing the rules, and to kick out those people not obeying the rules. Changing to a county based system won't change anything in that regard.
I agree with Dodge's post overall. The league has always worked; aside from the morons running it, people just have too much "ambition" and think not reaching their unrealistic targets constitues failure.
Much as I love being agreed with, I didn't say that was the main problem.
The "professional" league has never worked, and can never work, because of basic economies of scale. That's why semi-pro or fully amateur is the only way it can succeed, and why clubs either need to look on what they do as a hobby, or as a business. Unfortunately, most think they can do both. Brian Lennox is an example of a guy that nearly, but not quite, pulled it off.
I'll agree fully with that, but it doesn't follow from that that a county or province based system would be best.
The league is grand; people just need to accept it for what it is and try and improve it slowly.
Perhaps I'm being a bit simplistic but the way I look at it is that the county-based system works for GAA and the province-based system works for rugby, so football needs to follow their lead. Continuing in the misguided impression that the current setup can succeed, in light of overwhelming evidence against, is just plain wasteful, and will remain fruitless.
"The league is grand" sums it all up nicely though. If there is a main problem, that's it. It's not.
It is though. The concept of the league is grand. It's a concept which works the world over. Many of the people in the league are idiots, and you've noted above that they need to be sorted out. It's important to distinguish the two, I think. I'm a bit surprised at you going with a blanket "The league's not working, try something else"; it's very tabloidy for you.
I also think you are being too simplistic with your county-based approach. As an example, I know the people running our club have said that if we ever became, say, Stillorgan Celtic or South Dublin United, they'd have no interest in it. Drogheda and Dundalk fans have both said they'd have no interest in a Louth FC. So a county based scheme would only serve to alienate many of those who are currently involved in the game and you'd be looking for people to come in out of nowhere to fill the gaps.
Province based will never work because that'd be four clubs; it only works in rugby cos the Welsh and Scots can join in.
County-based works in GAA cos it's tradition. Club based works in the LoI because it's tradition. You have to build on what you have, not discard it entirely and pretend you can start anew.
Apart from everything else, county based league would make Scotland look competitive. The Dublin team would win practically every year.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
I think the league is going to revert back to being almost entirely amatuer in its nature, it's the only way it will survive. The days of ambition are gone, the idea of a fully professional league is dead in the water for the forseeable future at least. Maybe with the SPL also seemingly on the slide it will come a time when we end up with some sort of Celtic Football League akin to the Rugby equivalent but at the moment all I can see is a part-time domestic league.
"Your guilty conscience may move you to vote Democratic, but deep down you long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king"
Sideshow Bob
I think that's unfair tbh. I genuinely believe that the league does not and can never work in it's current format, and there isn't a speck of evidence to suggest otherwise. And I've had to listen to a laundry list of ineffective and often downright ridiculous "fixes" in the time I've followed the business of football. If anything, at this point it's the "it can be fixed" mantra that's "tabloidey".I'm a bit surprised at you going with a blanket "The league's not working, try something else"; it's very tabloidy for you.
Then maybe the league would be better off without them. The league would be better off without a very large percentage of people currently involved in it. Their hearts might be in it, but their brains aren't.I also think you are being too simplistic with your county-based approach. As an example, I know the people running our club have said that if we ever became, say, Stillorgan Celtic or South Dublin United, they'd have no interest in it.
If that was the case, people would have given up GAA a long time ago. It doesn't work like that in practice.
It doesn't work like that in the GAA as it's far more popular down the country than in Dublin. Places like Kerry and Kilkenny can compete with places with higher populations because no other sport is popular there. Football is the number one sport in Dublin and 11 of the last 13 titles have been won by Dublin teams. If they were all merged to one team, no other team could ever compete.
Regardless of that, this is just another pointless quick fix. Most fans of current teams won't follow new made up teams and the quality of play still won't be high enough to get barstoolers interested.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
As schumi said, you'll just end up alienating people who are doing good work for the game while still not getting the barstoolers (for want of a better catch-all term) interested. That'd do far more harm than good.
Also, I've not used the "It can be fixed" mantra. Just implement the rules and it'll be ok. It won't be what some people would like to think it could be, but that's because their expectations are too unreasltic, not because the league's broken.
Out of interest's sake - what would you define as a "working" league?
Given the population of Dublin then it would be feasible to have sides from Fingal, Dunlaoighre/Rathdown, Blanchardstown, Tallaght and Clondalkin. Each of those areas has populations to rival any city in Ireland. Anyway, this is straying slightly off topic. I still maintain that there should be at least a gesture from the FAI to show that they are interested in making the league work and putting a budget together for LOI promotion would be a good idea.
One with most of it's clubs not up to their ears in debt would be a start. What would you define as "not working"?I understand yours and schumi's points about the rest of it, I just don't agree with ye. And on joeSoap's point about Dublin clubs, that would be precisely the point of making the primary league county based. The number of Dublin clubs in the premier league is just plain silly, it's resulted in idiotic factionalisation and a complete waste of resources. Does nobody up there understand the word "consolidation"?
Fully agreeing with you still. I just don't see any link between moving to a county-based system and clearing debt. I do see a link between sorting out the idiots and clearing debt.One with most of it's clubs not up to their ears in debt would be a start. What would you define as "not working"?
The number of Dublin clubs in the Premier is unfortunately a decent reflection of football in the country; it's far more popular (playing-wise) in Dublin than in other areas. Changing to a county-based system won't affect that. What'd happen is that Dublin FC would walk the league every year and you'd get increasing apathy from Cork XI (the incarnation, not the number of players...
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