Simon Cox (F Western Sydney Wanderers b.1987)

[BonnieShels]

Brought up in Ireland? So that gives you a chance to include ROG (USA) and Heaslip (Israel)?
The idea of calling someone like Kevin Kilbane plastic would be remarkable, even for you Murf?

And what about the London-born Dave O'Leary and Paul McGrath? Are they plastic too?

Edit: Murf edited before the inevitable onslaught.

[DannyInvincible]

For comparison 28 out of 30 of the Rugby world cup squad were brought up in Ireland, we've still a high rate of "granny rule" players compared to other squads in the same or different sports, its progressive from what we used to have though it's still not anything to trumpet about.

It's not anything abnormal though either, is it? I mean, the rules and the rights they confer are there to be used, plus I think a healthy number of second or third generation players in the squad represents Irish heritage with its history of mass emigration rather well. Not to shirk the FAI of their duties within Ireland either, of course, but we'd still be a very competitive force even if we ignored diaspora players.

Came across this the other day: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soc...315584161.html

Lacking local talent, Poland searched far and wide for players with Polish roots.The squad includes defenders Damien Perquis from Sochaux and Werder Bremen's Sebastian Boenisch, as well as midfielders Ludovic Obraniak from Bordeaux, Fortuna Dusseldorf's Adam Matuszczyk and Mainz's Eugen Polanski. All were either born or raised abroad.

[paul_oshea]

Brought up in Ireland? So that gives you a chance to include ROG (USA) and Heaslip (Israel)?
The idea of calling someone like Kevin Kilbane plastic would be remarkable, even for you Murf?

And what about the London-born Dave O'Leary and Paul McGrath? Are they plastic too?

Edit: Murf edited before the inevitable onslaught.

Doesnt matter, if he wrote it initially its what he was really thinking.

Its only after measured thought he realised what he/it would sound like.

[Olé Olé]

I'm not sure many parallels should be drawn with rugby. The players we have that aren't in effect born or raised here seem to come from Australia or New Zealand in the most part (Tom Court, Isaac Boss and Keith Gleeson prior to that, among others). While many English-born players seem to ignore very strong Irish roots; Nick Kennedy, Shane Geraghty, Declan Danagher and Kyran Bracken in particular.

Perhaps one conclusion to be drawn from this is the theory put forward by Joey Barton: if you're not good enough for England, go off and play for Ireland. That seems to be what the Australian-born players seem to do (a recent instance of a former Leinster reserve throwing his lot in with Australia may stand as an exception, can't remember his name). Whereas, the afore-mentioned England players have tended to stick with England. In this regard, Ireland and England offer a rugby player a fairly similar opportunity to play international rugby. If you're good enough to play for Ireland, by deduction you should be good enough to play for England.

Again, I'll re-iterate, it's very difficult to draw parallels due to the equal footing Ireland and England seem to stand on in rugby terms and many other factors.

If we were to lose Walters and Cox then it wouldn't be the end of the world (Keogh, Best, Stokes, Jon Daly are all doing alright at club level). Similar situation stands for Foley and St. Ledger (although he has acquitted himself well), and Westwood's doesn't play with any regularity due to given. McGeady would be the biggest loss from the group, and the emergence of McClean would come some way towards mitigating his loss.

Not that I'm intending to belittle the contribution of any of those players, just stating that they're cogs in the machine for Trap rather than standouts, in a team which does place value in all the cogs.

[Stuttgart88]

we've still a high rate of "granny rule" players compared to other squads in the same or different sports.

To dismiss them as irrelevant given the higher rate of earlier retirements and withdrawals we have with foreign raised players would be incredibly naive. For every Kilbane that we're proud to have represent us there's an Andy O'Brien with questionable commitment.

Or a Stephen Carr or Stephen Ireland - Irish born and bred and who decided they couldn't be arsed when they had plenty to give.

Other countries & other sports? Yes - but relatively marginal. England, the world no. 1 test cricket team's most impoprtant players are South African. Spain's first trophy of their recent dominance was massively down to a naturalised Brazilian, Marcos Senna. Everyone does it and across many sports.

[Stuttgart88]

Not that I'm intending to belittle the contribution of any of those players, just stating that they're cogs in the machine for Trap rather than standouts, in a team which does place value in all the cogs.

Or in other words, we used to be dependent on the granny rule, now its benefits are marginal. That is progress indeed. Not worth trumpeting but definitely worth noting. Now if only we could find a world class central midfielder - born in Tipperary or Timbuktu I couldn't care less.

[AlaskaFox]

It's not anything abnormal though either, is it? I mean, the rules and the rights they confer are there to be used, plus I think a healthy number of second or third generation players in the squad represents Irish heritage with its history of mass emigration rather well. Not to shirk the FAI of their duties within Ireland either, of course, but we'd still be a very competitive force even if we ignored diaspora players.

Came across this the other day: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soc...315584161.html

3 of Germany's preliminary squad were born outside Germany - Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose are Poles and Cacau Brazilian. Klose's dad is German, Podolski's grandparents, while Cacau qualifies because he's lived in Germany since 1999.

Of Croatia's squad that was named today, Josip Simunic is Australian-born to Croat parents, in fact he never lived in Croatia until joining Dinamo Zagreb last year. Vedran Corluka, Nikica Jelavic, and Dejan Lovren were born in Bosnia, Ivo Ilicevic was born in Germany, Ivan Rakitic was born in Switzerland and played for their u21s, while Eduardo is Brazilian and became eligible for Croatia (like Cacau with Germany) by having lived there since 199.

[BonnieShels]

3 of Germany's preliminary squad were born outside Germany - Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose are Poles and Cacau Brazilian. Klose's dad is German, Podolski's grandparents, while Cacau qualifies because he's lived in Germany since 1999.

Germany are a special case of late as the DFB refused to pick such players until relatively recently.

[Yard of Pace]

Ireland is a country that people leave. I couldn't care a damn if any of our players were born and raised abroad so long as they have Irish blood in them. If they're ultimately a product of Ireland (and whichever other country) that's good enough for me. My nipper is half-Polish, born in Ireland. If someone in Poland suggested for a second he shouldn't play for their national team, I'd be appalled. (Though of course Ireland get first dibs)

[elroy]

I think its great that so many of our squad is Irish born, particularly when you compare it to the make up of the 1990 and 1994 squads. Is the fact that there are more Irish born players in the squad an indirect result of the successes of 88/90 and 94 - you can be damn sure it is!!

Not that it really matters imo. Someone has already mentioned Killer, but Sean St Ledger is the KK for the next 5 years. You will not find a player more dedicated to the cause and who is very much in touch with fans. A real favourite in my opinion. We are very lucky that in general the non Irish born lads that come in almost always seem to have a positive influence. For example, many were very unsure of Clinton Morrison back in the day and no one can doubt the commitment he put in the green.

Finally as someone else has mentioned above we are far from the only country to draft in 2G players and why not. If anything, it is reflective of our isle.

[SkStu]

Nice comments from Cox referring to "my country." Interesting point regarding 17 of the 23 being born in Ireland. Further to that, I'm aware that Foley's first choice was always going to be Ireland and McGeady chose us from a young age too. Walter's connection is less than tenuous with an Irish mother. As regards Westwood, St. Ledger and Cox who rely on grandparents (like McGeady), they have always performed with great commitment.

From the 2002 World Cup squad, 11 out of 23 were English-born.

6 former league of Ireland players in the squad too. Just throwing it out there...

[magicman]

I think its great that so many of our squad is Irish born, particularly when you compare it to the make up of the 1990 and 1994 squads. Is the fact that there are more Irish born players in the squad an indirect result of the successes of 88/90 and 94 - you can be damn sure it is!!

I agree with this but could it not also have a lot to do with what Yard of Pace said above you? Ireland is a country people leave? There was a large number of people who left the country in the early 60's & 80's, as a result, in 2002 a lot of our players were born abroad or their grandparents left in the 60's.

Same thing now, things have been better from the 90's onwards, 20 odd years later and there is a greater number of our team born at home. It would be interesting to see the make up of our squad in 20 years time. With mass emigration for the last few years(plus the grandparents who left in the eighties), could our squad in 20 years time see a larger number of 2G players?

[BonnieShels]

I think the example of Balkan players is a good demonstration of how "nationality" is different to birthplace.
Though all of the 3 players above were born in Yugoslavia pre-civil war and the fact that they were born in places that were either majority Serb or Bosniak, I don't think there's a doubt were their loyalties ever lay.

[Junior]

I like Cox and have no issues with 2G Irish playing for us, though I prefer them to be in the minority as they are now, but "playing for my country" is quite a departure from what he said a couple of years ago.

Hey Stutts, out of interest would you care to ellaborate on that point? I know you dont have issues with 2g/3g from your many sensible posts on the matter and being 2g yourself but why would your preferencce be 2g's to be in the minority?

Less ammunition for the 'plastic' paddy bashers?
Reflects a better situation in Ireland? Economic, less emigration etc...
Reflects better grass roots footballing development in Ireland

Something else?

[Stuttgart88]

Back in a previous incarnation of this debate - p4 of the Zak Knight (sic) thread from 2004 - I posted the following (I don't know how to link specific posts):

generally I'd like the bulk of our squad to have no ambiguity about their Irishness. A rule of thumb, not a hard & fast rule I suppose.

To which green goblin replied:

i think you're right. there's a real temptation for us to get very dogmatic about this issue, and it's not a clear cut thing at all.

Bill Murray to Sigouney Weaver in in Ghostbusters: "I have a rule never to sleep with posessed women....Well, it's more of a guideline really".

I thought it was a great response.

But to answer your question: less ammo for the bashers and a better reflection on Irish football.

As a Glasgow-born (but Dublin reared) father to 2 London born and reared children I'm not exactly going to be dogmatically opposed to plastics joining the cause. In fact the best thing about the away trips is seeing just how closely the plastics identify and support us. Brilliant stuff.

[Stuttgart88]

being 2g yourself

I'm not exactly 2G!

My family is Irish going back virtually forever but my dad was working in Glasgow for 4 years and I was born during his stint there. The family moved home in 1970 when I was 3 and then I moved to London for work and family reasons in 1999.

[Junior]

As a rule of thumb........with the 2g/3g supporters you find there is no ambiguity about their irishness - otherwise they wouldnt be in Yerevan, Skopje, timbuktoo supporting the BIG. With the 2g/3g players who have represented us it isnt nearly as clear cut. For every KK there are many who have only discovered or cared about their irishness once the topic of international football is raised.

If the 2g/3g players were more of the mindset of their equivalent fans then I would be jumping in to bed with Sigourney without hesitation.......

[Junior]

I'm not exactly 2G!

My family is Irish going back virtually forever but my dad was working in Glasgow for 4 years and I was born during his stint there. The family moved home in 1970 when I was 3 and then I moved to London for work and family reasons in 1999.

Here fishy fishy......

I know I know but I thought I'd slip that in. It obviously matters to you though (the distinction I mean). You mentioned 'Dublin reared' in your first post, you followed it up with this one. You're 2G no biggy surely? Are we 2nd G Irish or 2nd Class Irish?

[Stuttgart88]

I guess my point was that 2g / 3g fans show that they can be as committed as any Irish born and bred fan (probably more than most) so the same can apply to the players too. However, the lower the 2g and 3g representation is, the less ambiguity exists about their motivation for playing or their commitment. Which more or less is covered in the "less ammo for the bashers" bit above.

[Stuttgart88]

Are we 2nd Class Irish?

Depends whether you're from Dublin!