Does anybody find it frustrating that the media and the politcians the the general public react in dismay to stories about frogs being counted and how much it costs. This anti intellectulism is a joke. These sort of populist reactions are becoming more and more common.
In Trap we trust
The specific example you give is very much media lead. It's unfortunately driven by a number of factors, including a dismissive attitude towards science reporting in the media, increased pressure on modern reporters as media cut costs in a less profitable era, and poor media communication skills of many scientists. Ben Goldacre talks about it extensively in his book, Bad Science. I highly recommend it, and it's only £3.57 on Amazon right now.
You can't spell failure without FAI
Blame Skynews, The Internet, X-Factor and Facebook, accelerated history (best of the noughties and we're still in them just). Dumbed down through progress.Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Best Thread Title Ever!
Seconded. Also Trick or Treatment by Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh.
yeah I know the irony of my bad spelling and the title was not missed by me. Sorry it was a typo.
Cheers whoever corrected the thread title.
Last edited by NeilMcD; 10/12/2009 at 10:28 PM.
In Trap we trust
Yeah have read the book and its top class .It was one of the reasons why I put up the thread but Enda Kenny's reaction to the frog counting just confirmed it for me. It really was a low point in this area for the leader of the opposition to react in such a manner. The dismissal of science is scandalous.
I think it was Einstein who said that, if bees became extinct the human population would last about 4 years, but I am sure if we had a guy whose job was to protect bees etc, his job would have the **** taken out of it by the daily mail or the panel or some other cynical media organ.
In Trap we trust
One tiny cause for optimism is that this seems to be a fairly consistent thing - I've read examples from throughout the age of enlightenment* - so perhaps this is just human nature, and not some looming modern catastrophe.
*I'm damned if I can remember any of them - I'd be a much more interesting conversationalist if I could remember a tenth of the stuff I read.
You can't spell failure without FAI
The bias is, in my opinion, not simply against science, but against all peeping of high-brows above the parapets. There is at times an almost glorious glee at "not getting it". It doesn't take a particularly clever statement to elicit the "Over my head: aren't you the berk for being clever" gesture. Or using a word that may not be common parlance, and not currently being pushed by RTÉ as the big or foreign sounding word that is acceptably intelligent - why should that bring about the response "Did you eat a dictionary last night?". From teachers on occasion.
In fairness, the same attitude has existed in Britain, probably worse and certainly so since the era of Thatcher. It is hard to spot anyone who could be publicly denoted as a famous British Intellectual, especially now - remove people known chiefly for doing something on the BBC and you are floundering completey. At least in Ireland there have been a few who have been recognised intellectuals without recourse to RTÉ (I am aware of the contradiction inherent in that idea). Indeed, many would suggest that when Garret Fitzgerald became Taoiseach, the nation elected one. Though obviously he didn't last.
That question was less stupid, though you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Help me, Arthur Murphy, you're my only hope!
RTE should organise an ALL Ireland Intellectual contest and get the public to text vote in for their favourite.
Cork City: Making 'Dream Team' seem realistic since 2007.
In a thread about populist thinking sometimes being slightly off track, we have a prime candidate.
The one thing I'll say is that it most certainly isn't confied to Ireland
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Sad but true. Not that I'd know, but any article in The Sun about scientific research always describes the scientists as "boffins", as if they're some sort of wierd bunch of not-quite-humans, perhaps with their own exhibit in the zoo.
This rankles with me too. It encourages the idea that science is something too difficult to understand, some arcane black art rather than just a systematic, logical, self-critical apprasal of knowledge.
What's worse is that education seems to feed that notion rather than help dismiss it. The number of education systems which have moved in the direction of '2 + 2 = 5 is a valid artistic expression of Timmy's creativity. There are no wrong answers' is distressing.
You can't spell failure without FAI
http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=56
Apologies, but what happened with the frogs? I can't seem to find anything on it...
Also Bad Science should be on the National Curriculum.
http://www.politics.ie/green-party/1...ing-frogs.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/k...ct-437433.html (listen to the audio file on it)
In Trap we trust
From a British point of view, this happens just as much over here too, as it does in the US, and probably in every other country as well. The media with science as with everything else is quick to mislead and distort. But we shouldn't believe that people necessarily blindly accept what the media tell them. Most of the people I know realise that 99% of what the mainstream media say is rubbish. As for politicians, I disagree that they are all that bad. If you actually read the content on parliamentary debates and such the opinions seem to be reasonably well considered in general. Obviously you get some nonsense which makes it into the headlines but I'd argue that it's less endemic than is widely thought. I actually think the arts are just as misunderstood as the sciences and would cite John83's statement as an example of that. Regardless of the merits and demerits of a liberal education, it is almost certainly not the case that anyone in a state school seriously teaches to kids that 2+2=5.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
Hmm. They're not exactly compatible....
And given what they've said about Ireland over the years, it's embarassing the 'paper' even retails in the country. Or people buy it.
Though it is anathema is to Intellectualism in any form..
I don't think anyone would deny that. I think the title was intended to focus the conversation rather than to imply that we're necessarily unusual in this respect.
This doesn't stop anyone from absorbing distorted information and reusing it later as fact. We don't think about this, but it happens all the time. Vaccine scares are an example of this with very serious consequences.The media with science as with everything else is quick to mislead and distort. But we shouldn't believe that people necessarily blindly accept what the media tell them. Most of the people I know realise that 99% of what the mainstream media say is rubbish.
I don't doubt that there's some truth to this, but as long as decisions are ultimately made with political motives as a powerful driving force, the right thing will get shelved.As for politicians, I disagree that they are all that bad. If you actually read the content on parliamentary debates and such the opinions seem to be reasonably well considered in general. Obviously you get some nonsense which makes it into the headlines but I'd argue that it's less endemic than is widely thought.
I lament an education system which can produce someone who can't detect a simple exaggeration. Nevertheless, I'll refer you to, e.g. Why Johnny Can't Add: the Failure of the New Math, which explains how a dominant teaching paradigm produced a generation of students who were functionally mathematically illiterate.I actually think the arts are just as misunderstood as the sciences and would cite John83's statement as an example of that. Regardless of the merits and demerits of a liberal education, it is almost certainly not the case that anyone in a state school seriously teaches to kids that 2+2=5.
You can't spell failure without FAI
Well, I kind of guessed you were exaggerating there, but I suppose my point was that encouraging creative thought as an educational principle will not lead to denying simple facts. There are problems with our education system (by that I mean the British one, I'm not too familiar with the Irish one but would assume it's fairly similar), but many more of these problems are down to the league tables system which forces teachers to teach in a way that encourages passage of exams and good grades rather than actual understanding of the subject.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
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