John Giles and Footballing Ideology

**NeilMcD** · 09/12/2009, 7:58 PM

Not sure if this is the right forum for this but anyway here I go. Does anybody get the impression from John Giles that if he was managing Kiev tonight against Barcelona and at half time he woudl practically have give up as he would think in his heart of hearts that Barcelona are a better team and play the game the way he thinks it should be played and he would not bring a team managed by him to destruct the way Barcelona play.

The reason I say this is from observing Giles for a number of years and hearing about how he managed the Irish team and anectoes like when playing in Thurles in the cup with Rovers the pitch was terrible, a real bad pitch and he would not tell his players to play more direct even though playing passing football was near impossible.

How this fits in with the Irish team, is that , maybe Giles is not a pragmitist and and has an ideology of how the game should be played and thinks it should be played like that all the time and no other way will do. Therefore he fundamently disagrees with the way Charlton set out the team and now in turn the way Trap sets out the team. Charlton and Trap are pragmatic whereas Giles is clinging to an ideology.

**jebus** · 09/12/2009, 8:14 PM

Probably but bar Arsene Wenger I can't really think of a manager that resolutely sticks to such an ideology and doesn't get the sack. Even when you hear Ferguson harp on about United's traditions he seems to forget the many times his team has gone ultra-defensive (Barcelona 08 CL semi final at home for example) or have fouled a team off the pitch (against Arsenal when they ended the Invincible's run, Rooney diving for the pen as well).

I can only think of one time Wenger's Arsenal have seemingly abandoned their ideology and that was the 05 FA Cup final, but I've always put that more down to United walking them off the park and Arsenal looking rubbish than them setting out to be ultra-defensive.

In short Giles talks a good game, not so sure he'd stick to it if he were managing though. Plus I have heard him comment on occasion that it's up to the better team to break down their inferior opposition, which leads me to believe he understands that technically inferior teams sometimes have to adapt a not so pretty approach

**jbyrne** · 10/12/2009, 8:02 AM

good defense and organisation are as much a part of good football as fancy passing. smaller countries / teams have to cut their cloth to suit their strengths if they want to have any chance of getting anywhere so not everyone can play the same way

used to like listening to Giles but he has had his time i think and he tends to spend a lot of his time trying to prove a point or something he said before rather than just purely analyse whats in front of him

**OwlsFan** · 10/12/2009, 9:26 AM

I had the misfortune of following both Giles' Irish team and his Shamrock Rovers team. Much of the time it was like watching paint dry. The keeper throws the ball out to the full back who passes to the centre half who passes to the other full back. A midfielder comes back and takes the ball off the full back and passes to another midfielder who has also come back to take the ball and who then passes to centre half who trips up, the opponents gain possession and score.

Exaggerated of course but he liked his teams to keep possession at all costs even if it was going no where. You need highly skilled players (like Giles) to make this work and to actually create anything but as you say Neill, that was the way he played whether it was a 3rd division player or a top level player in midfield or whether the defence wasn't comfortable on the ball.

So to answer your question, yes, Giles plays one way and every other way is incorrect. Can't teach an old dog etc etc

**osarusan** · 10/12/2009, 9:37 AM

When Denmark beat Nigeria 6-1 at the world cup a few years ago, Bill asked John afterwards if he lamented the exit of the Nigerians and their beautiful free-flowing football. John replied that it had been the Danes who had played beautiful football. When pressed to explain, he said that going out onto the pitch with a plan to win the game, and executing it properly, was beautiful football, even if it doesn't involve flowing football.

**Emmet7** · 10/12/2009, 11:10 AM

My own belief is you play the most effective football possible.

Giles was and is an idealist. He wants everyone to play like Arsenal and Barcelona. While Barcelona are effective, Arsenal are only effective against physically small teams or else teams with less skill than them.

They get easily pushed aside by the Chelsea's of this world.

If nice passing play wins you games so be it. If hoofing it wins you the game, just as well. Trap is much more a pragmatist. He'd rather win ugly than lose by playing nice football. He looks at the players he has at his disposal, sees we don't have Messi's, etc, and thinks the only way to beat teams is by playing more direct football. However the players are now developing the confidence to play a different type of game.

At the end of the day, does anyone really care if the team plays free flowing football or not. What matters most is the result. There are tons of teams in the lower reaches of every national league who play nice football but they don't win games.

The Messi's an Xavi's of this world learned their trade when they were in their teens and even younger.

You cannot suddenly turn a senior international with limited technical ability into a Xavi, well you cannot do it in a few international games. But I think we saw in the game in Paris, that the players are becoming more confident and assured on the ball, don't panic and hoof it as much.

It's all about a football culture at the end of the day, or a system of play as Trap calls it.

Having said that I think we'd all rather see Ireland play like Barcelona.

**NeilMcD** · 10/12/2009, 3:36 PM

I do think that I would rather a Giles in charge of my young kids rather than Trap and certainly and Allardyce etc but I think at the cutting edge of interational football where its win at all costs and you only have the players for 3 days every few months, if you dont have the players, the system must come first. At club level its different as you have the players longer and you do have an onus to etertain in my view. If I am going week in week out I do expect entertainment.

**NeilMcD** · 10/12/2009, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by BYCTWD

But he had a system and wouldn't deviate from it, thats the point you started out with. Now he didn't stick to a system.

Is this just some assinine attempt to have a go at a former Rovers player/manager?

The rovers connection has nothing to do with it whatsoever. I think that Giles would be better with kids as he would teach them a footballing philosophy and get them to do the rights things. What I dont think he would be as good at is that at the highest level its about winning. His philosophy is based on possession football which you need good players for. If you do not have good players this is harder to do and you end up getting beaten more often. At international football you cannot buy players or improve your players through coaching. As a result many mid ranking teams that do well, adopt a system that makes them well organised and hard to beat and work from there. I think that this would go against his principles and as a result I do not think he would be a good international manager or a manager of a mid ranking club.

So in conclusion he woudl be good with the kids or with a team with the best players in the world. I am a fan of John Giles but if you want to see it in binary terms, that its a Rover Bohs thing or an anti Giles rant, but thats not the motivation of my thread.

**edinho** · 10/12/2009, 7:22 PM

fair play to Giles. he believes football should be played the right way. i personally love the short passing european keep possession type game, even if it is a bit outdated now. i just love the patience and skill required to hold onto the ball and work it across, up and down tiring the opposition out while waiting for the killer opening. as a famous manager once said "we play football on the ground. if God wanted us to play football in the clouds he would have put grass there"

**OwlsFan** · 10/12/2009, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by edinho

fair play to Giles. he believes football should be played the right way. i personally love the short passing european keep possession type game, even if it is a bit outdated now. i just love the patience and skill required to hold onto the ball and work it across, up and down tiring the opposition out while waiting for the killer opening. as a famous manager once said "we play football on the ground. if God wanted us to play football in the clouds he would have put grass there"

Did you ever see any of his teams play? As a supporter once said, "I'd sooner have grass in the sky rather than watching it grow on the ground".

**geysir** · 10/12/2009, 9:28 PM

A great manager for us for the first 2 campaigns as he combined being a player for Leeds, being a player manager with West Brom and player/manager for us.
With hardly any preparation time (a pre match talk) he helped drag us from wooden spoon material to playing toe for toe with the best.
At the age of 37 he was still controlling the game.
His last campaign for us faded poorly along with his own game.
He did well with West Brom at least in his first stint with them, made some good quality signings including Regis and Cunningham.

As for being a winner at all costs, playing with Leeds for 10 years says enough about that.

**NeilMcD** · 10/12/2009, 9:38 PM

I think you are right in what you say there geysir, but he does not preach that now. He does an awful lot of tut tutting about dirty tackles and cheating now you would swear he was an angel on the pitch. Having spoke to my Dad who is a Bohs and Leeds fan, he said Giles was the dirtiest player out there.

**The Don** · 11/12/2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by jebus

Even when you hear Ferguson harp on about United's traditions he seems to forget the many times his team has gone ultra-defensive (Barcelona 08 CL semi final at home for example) or have fouled a team off the pitch (against Arsenal when they ended the Invincible's run, Rooney diving for the pen as well).

For a start this fouling Arsenal of the pitch is a myth that has grown legs as the years have gone by. Giles looks to his own era as the golden age of football and is constantly comparing teams to teams that played in his day, what he fails to accept is the game has changed completely at a professional level in the last 20yrs.

**OwlsFan** · 14/12/2009, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

A great manager for us for the first 2 campaigns as he combined being a player for Leeds, being a player manager with West Brom and player/manager for us. With hardly any preparation time (a pre match talk) he helped drag us from wooden spoon material to playing toe for toe with the best.

Hmmm, Giles's record as Irish Manager:

.........................................P..W.D..L
Johnny Giles......1973 - 1980 37 14 9 14
Steve Staunton 2006 - 2007 17...6.5..6

First full time manager for us so there was bound to be an improvement on what went on before. The style of play was terrible to be honest. It was nothing like the quick fire passing of Arsenal. It was Giles coming back and taking the ball off the centre half and the defenders passing to each other across the pitch and often making little progress. I remember Mick Martin trying this, giving the ball away and the opposition scoring.

**geysir** · 14/12/2009, 8:13 PM

Giles was not a full time manager, he was a part time manager, same as what went on before.
His first 2 campaigns were good and the football was good, last home draw against Bulgaria excepted.
His 3rd and last campaign was poor and the football was dire, sometimes very dire. The last game against England when there was nothing to lose, was the pits, there Giles persisted with knocking it about, slow build up play, when most supporters wanted English blood.

Unbeaten in competition at home
6 wins France, Soviet Union, Turkey, Switzerland, Bulgaria and Denmark
3 draws Bulgaria, England and Northern Ireland

Away form poor, only 2 draws with Turkey and Denmark.

overall 6 wins 5 draws, 7 defeats.

**Deckydee** · 05/05/2010, 6:28 AM

Is it just me gents or does anyone else think that Giles has got a huge problem with Billow Hurley. Judge for yourself and let me know what you think.

Its not the first time I have thought this

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/...alysis_av.html

**drummerboy** · 05/05/2010, 7:54 AM

Giles transformed Ireland from being a bottom of the table team to challenging for qualification. I took a half day from school and went to Dalymount to see Liam Brady, making his debut playing alongside Giles, demolish USSR (Russia to all you whippersnappers) 3-0. Since that day we are no longer international pushovers, although Stan almost brought us back there. Giles was instrumental in putting a bit of pride back into the green jersey. As a player he could play wonderful football, 40 yeard passes ect but he was well able to put the boot in when required.