Musgrave Park Development

**Munsterfan** · 05/03/2004, 10:47 AM

Hi guys

Rugby is my no 1 game, but have been to many Cork City games over the years.

Anyway, I don't know if you are aware that finally it looks like Musgrave Park is finally going to get its much needed redevelopment. Plans have been submitted to the IRFU by the Munster Branch along with the Provincial requirements of the other provinces. That is fact, but it is being kept secret until the IRFU agree to it - fair enough.

There have been all sorts of rumours doing the rounds. Capacities have varied between 17,000 up to 25,000 all seater. But one of the rumours is a possible link up with Cork City, in a tenancy situation. Obviously, it would make sense with City playing in the summer. Does anyone know anything about it ?

**Peadar** · 05/03/2004, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Munsterfan
Does anyone know anything about it ?

It has been discussed on this forum but I doubt anyone knows anything for sure.
If you're a fan of sport in Cork you may have read or heard recently about the FAI Club Licensing scheme. Cork City FC failed to obtain a Grade A license which is required in order to compete in UEFA Club Competition.
It's no secret that Turners Cross is a major stumbling block between us and the coveted license.
I for one could be convinced that a joint agreement between Cork City and the IRFU could benefit both parties.
The key factor here for Cork City FC is the location of Musgrave Park. One of the greatest days in our clubs short history was in Musgrave Park.

**Munsterfan** · 05/03/2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Peadar
It has been discussed on this forum but I doubt anyone knows anything for sure.
If you're a fan of sport in Cork you may have read or heard recently about the FAI Club Licensing scheme. Cork City FC failed to obtain a Grade A license which is required in order to compete in UEFA Club Competition.
It's no secret that Turners Cross is a major stumbling block between us and the coveted license.
I for one could be convinced that a joint agreement between Cork City and the IRFU could benefit both parties.
The key factor here for Cork City FC is the location of Musgrave Park. One of the greatest days in our clubs short history was in Musgrave Park.

Against Bayern Munich ! Yes, I was there. And saw City at Flower Lodge back in the 80s....and was brought to the Lodge in the 70s as a young fella.

Indeed, I have heard about the Licensing scheme, but didn't make the connection until you mentioned it there. It makes perfect sense.

In Rugby, we need a stadium of the 20-30,000 capacity (ideally, but we are dealing with feckin amateurs in the Munster Branch )

, but the question over it is, "How can we justify a new stadium with only one or two, maybe three sellouts a year ?".

The IRFU and the FAI have shown the way, in creating a Management Company to run the new stadium. Something similar could be arranged here, although I think the IRFU could fund most of this new stadium, so it is slightly different. But the vital part is that there would be regular income coming in from 2 sources.

Plus it would be a great kick up the arse for the GAA !

Especially the Cork County Board.

How many sellouts did City have last year ?

How far do you think they can grow the average attendence ?

Are City tied into the Cross long term ?

**namloc** · 05/03/2004, 11:39 AM

As much as I would love to see city playing in a 20-30,00 seater stadium, I don't think there is the need for it for city. Imagine a crowd of 5,000 in a stadium of 25,000. The crowd would be lost and there would be no atmosphere at all. I think an all-seater stadium of 10-12,000 max would be more than enough for the use of city and munster rugby. No point in being over ambitious and building a huge stadium with no one to fill it.

**Munsterfan** · 05/03/2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by namloc
As much as I would love to see city playing in a 20-30,00 seater stadium, I don't think there is the need for it for city. Imagine a crowd of 5,000 in a stadium of 25,000. The crowd would be lost and there would be no atmosphere at all. I think an all-seater stadium of 10-12,000 max would be more than enough for the use of city and munster rugby. No point in being over ambitious and building a huge stadium with no one to fill it.

Namloc, within rugby circles, we are beyond that argument now. For the Gloucester game, we could have sold 30-40,000 tickets, for the other 2 pool matches, 20-30,000. The Munster Branch do absolutely no marketing for the Heineken Cup games, not an awful lot more for the Celtic League.

For the Stade Francais game coming up, there will be no tickets available to the public AND the quantity available to the clubs have been slashed. Stade requested their full 25% allocation of 3,199 tickets even though they will only have about 2-300 supporters there (French supporters don't travel), so there is a suspicion that they have sold them to the black market - but that's another story.

For Heineken Cup semi's there is a need for a minimum capacity of a 20,000 seater, I'm sure that will extend to quarter finals in time as well.

What can't Cork City and Munster Rugby GROW their support.

The average crowd for a Celtic League match was 4,500 in a Rugby World Cup year, when most of the team consisted of reserve or 3rd choice players ! For Christian Cullen's first match, it was up to 7,500.

Cork is a sports mad city, is it not possible to have 25,000 crowds again. The FAI seem to be very positive it trying to go down that road. Don't just think of the average now, look to the long term. As I said earlier, it is quite possible that the IRFU will fund the redevelopment of Musgrave Park, so the issue would be running costs more than capital costs. Their was an IRFU sub committee set up last September with a view to seeing how they could finance such a development.

London Irish rugby club play at Reading FC (20-22,000), and have an average attendence of about 7-8,000. They have a great atmosphere going and will have at least 2 sellouts a year. One was the St. Stephen's Day fixture and the other will be St. Patrick's Day. Each time they have a sellout, I'm sure they have people coming back for more.

**namloc** · 05/03/2004, 12:25 PM

MunsterFan, I admire your enthusiasm on this issue, I really do. I would love to see 15,000 people going along on a friday night to a New all-seater Musgrave Park in order to see Cork City play, however unfortunately it is not likely to happen, not even in the medium to long term. There is simply enough interest in, and most of the time there is apathy towards, the eircom League in Ireland to justify a 25,000 seater stadium for Cork City for example. City are the best supported team in Ireland yet only managed an average attendance of approx. 4,500 last season. Unfortunately the eL in Ireland cannot compete with the marketing juggernaut of the FA Premiership in England. The vast majority of people in Cork are far more interested in what happens at Man Utd, Liverpool etc than at what happens at Cork City. (Granted eL clubs could do ALOT more marketing wise).

On the point of Munster Rugby. What happens down the road in the seasons when Munster go through a bad patch (as every team does) and interest starts to flag. You'll have a half full stadium. There is merit in ambition but over-ambition can lead to problems down the road. Build a 10-12,000 seater stadium which i'm sure cork city would gladly lease and work from there!

**Munsterfan** · 05/03/2004, 1:00 PM

Originally posted by namloc
MunsterFan, I admire your enthusiasm on this issue, I really do. I would love to see 15,000 people going along on a friday night to a New all-seater Musgrave Park in order to see Cork City play, however unfortunately it is not likely to happen, not even in the medium to long term. There is simply enough interest in, and most of the time there is apathy towards, the eircom League in Ireland to justify a 25,000 seater stadium for Cork City for example. City are the best supported team in Ireland yet only managed an average attendance of approx. 4,500 last season. Unfortunately the eL in Ireland cannot compete with the marketing juggernaut of the FA Premiership in England. The vast majority of people in Cork are far more interested in what happens at Man Utd, Liverpool etc than at what happens at Cork City. (Granted eL clubs could do ALOT more marketing wise).

On the point of Munster Rugby. What happens down the road in the seasons when Munster go through a bad patch (as every team does) and interest starts to flag. You'll have a half full stadium. There is merit in ambition but over-ambition can lead to problems down the road. Build a 10-12,000 seater stadium which i'm sure cork city would gladly lease and work from there!

What is the capacity of Turners Cross and how many times have you sold out ?

There is a finite capacity in TC, perhaps initially for the lesser games, they could be played there with the bigger matches, presumably against the Dublin sides (?), over in MP.

Rugby won't make the same mistake again with regard to the lack of Corporate facilities, and that would be available as well, to City. We are both agreed that the Marketing is crap all round. There is so much more potential. The population of Cork City and County is 500,000, while for Munster rugby, it is 1.1 million.

Frank Murphy wants to increase the capacity of Pairc Ui Chaoimh from 43,000 to 55,000 at a cost of 20 million euro. They only use it maybe twice a year. It doesn't put them off though.

The capacity of Thomond Park is 13-14,000 depending on who you are talking to

. They are goosed there because they cannot expand. MP does have the area to expand, they know they have to, and I think you are looking at a realistic minimum of 20,000.

Munster are, at the moment, in the top 4 clubs in Europe. They have to be aggressive in building for the future, in order to match the other top teams. We are lucky in being there at the start of professional rugby, and they have to plan in remaining in at least the top 12 teams even in the rough days that will come at some stage. I've been to a number of clubs in Europe at this stage, and we are a long way off the pace on the Admin/facilities side.

At Harlequins, next to Twickenham. They have an 8,000 capacity, loads of Corporate Boxes and underneath the Main stand they have a bar that stretches the entire length of the stand which is heaving all evening. Upstairs, there are separate functions for the sponsors. The players start up there and then work their way down to the ordinary supporters.

Even the, sadly, midtable Liverpool have to plan to expand, to match the big boys. You have to plan to remain successful and capitalise on the times when you are up.

**paudie** · 05/03/2004, 1:04 PM

I've always thought that a link up between City and the Munster Branch at Musgrave Park would be a great idea.

Now is the time to raise it before plans are finalised.

also City are financing some redevelopment at Turners Cross in the next couple of years (possibly up to �1m) so that would probaly tie them down to Turners cross for a while.

Since City are only tenants of the MFA at Turners Cross its the MFa who the rugby people should be talking to.

I think a 15,000 all seater stadium would be ideal for City, though possibly not big enough for Munster.

Definitely worth considering by the club though.

**namloc** · 05/03/2004, 2:05 PM

Capacity in Turners Cross is in the region of 8,000. Not sure of exact figure though. I can't remember the last time the X was packed but even when there is a good crowd there, there is always plenty of seats at the St. Anne's end. A 25,00 seater stadium would definitely be far too big for City's needs and I wouldn't think City would lease a stadium of that size if Musgrave Park was redeveloped to that level.

**A face** · 05/03/2004, 2:06 PM

I would hate to see it actually

I would like to see City, if they move from the Cross into their own ground or into a situation where they are sharing a ground.

I am not talking about City renting a ground and being at the mercy of the landlord and not making any money off the other facilities ... i.e. bar, gym, conference room, etc.

If City move it should be to better themselves ... not to have themselves over a barrell. If they were ever to move from the cross again, it should be to benifit themselves.

[size=12]No to Musser !![/size]

BillyConway · 05/03/2004, 2:18 PM

unless city were equal owners it musnt happen

**** the egg chasers we are city from the cross!

**pete** · 05/03/2004, 2:44 PM

I've mentioned this many times & see no problems with it. No problem with being a tenant either as long as its a long term contract.

If Musgrave Park is bigger than Thomand Park where would the ERC games be played? Would they really move them from Limerick??? Also there are only 3-5 home ERC games a year.

I think 20k would be plenty big enough for Munster rugby games as not gonna sell them all out & sell outs generate their own puiblicity & interest.

I think City would do well to get close to regular 10k crowd anywhere but better facilities always improve attendances. Even if City didn't use new Musgrave Park they might use for the odd European game & save renovation cash on the Cross.

btw how are the Munster Branch gonna apy for Musgrave upgrade? would it be all-seater?

**Ozymandias** · 05/03/2004, 3:22 PM

A 20,000 seater musgrave park would be of benefit to both rugby and cork city....It would have a bar licence which city doesn't have at the moment...it would have corporate boxes which would attract more investment from companies..it would make the whole club more marketable also it would increase the fan base accross the codes

wuldn't it be great on a summers evening watching city and been able to have a few pints afterwards in the bar in the ground with players and supportes etc

The cross is great but if city want to progress to where they say they want to be and be commercially viable then they have to move

Non league clubs in england have unbelievable set ups with bars and functions going on wholesale

it may just be the way forward

**tiktok** · 05/03/2004, 3:24 PM

City have committed to a one million euro investment in Turner's Cross, involving the demolition of the shed and building of press facilities, club shop, dressing rooms etc.

They're definitely not going to leave the Cross any time soon. City would definitely be lost in a 20,000 seater stadium, although I would be open to hiring Musgrave from the suggested management group in the event of a big European tie or an attractive friendly which would guarantee extra ticket sales.

I wouldn't object to the use of any Car park that might be put in as part of the Musgrave redevelopment

**Munsterfan** · 05/03/2004, 3:43 PM

Originally posted by pete
I've mentioned this many times & see no problems with it. No problem with being a tenant either as long as its a long term contract.

If Musgrave Park is bigger than Thomand Park where would the ERC games be played? Would they really move them from Limerick??? Also there are only 3-5 home ERC games a year.

I think 20k would be plenty big enough for Munster rugby games as not gonna sell them all out & sell outs generate their own puiblicity & interest.

btw how are the Munster Branch gonna apy for Musgrave upgrade? would it be all-seater?

I would imagine that a long term contract wouldn't be a problem.

Yes, they would play the big matches in Musgrave Park. They are snookered with Thomond as they have only one exit,. They would be allowed a capacity of 16-17,000 even now, if they had a second exit. Safety regulations. And they really don't have a chance of getting that extra exit.

They would sellout the HC matches. They don't even market these matches. Celtic League will really be judged next year but it is promising, even though the IRFU want it cut from 22 to 11 games - stupid. I think the CL will justify itself next season.

Re the payment. As I said earlier, the IRFU have setup a sub committee to see how this can be achieved, but they have 90 acres in Tallaght they now do not need. This is worth about 40 Million euro.

**Ozymandias** · 05/03/2004, 4:03 PM

Tiktok...as far as I am aware that million euro investment will take place whether city are at the cross or not as it is fai and lottery funding secured by the MFA.........also I think that lennox is prepared to commit 200K of his own to the ground

I love the cross but in terms of marketing etc it is restricting the club..if they could get a pub licence and planning for a function room (won't because of space) the club could generate more money and investment

I think if a modern 200,000 stadium is built on their doorstp with corporate and bar facilities the club would be mad not to get involved

I would miss the cross though just as I miss flower lodge but if it was for the better of the club i would live with it

nice predicament to have though isn't it

**A face** · 05/03/2004, 4:32 PM

Originally posted by Ozymandias
I think if a modern 200,000 stadium is built on their doorstp with corporate and bar facilities the club would be mad not to get involved

I take it you mean 20,000 seater ..... and just to make things clear .... City, if tenants ... wouldn't get a bean from the bar in Musser. They wouldn't get a bean from the other facilities, hence they would be of no benifit to City, unless they were to avail of them.

They only way to go into a partnership in a stadium would be 50/50 split down the middle and to appoint staff to run different sections.

If it were any other way ... City could not get the maximum benifit from their efforts, and it could only be considered a waste.

They is no other way to look at it.

Paddle our own kanoe !!

**patsh** · 05/03/2004, 4:46 PM

Rather than commiting �200,000 of his money to the Cross, I think Lennox should be seriously thinking about our own ground. We NEED a bar and function room to generate money. Happy as I am to watch games at the cross, I think the Derby episode is proof to all that we have to either leave, or else buy it from the MFA.
We should be going to a game tonight, which would have added some money to our coffers, highlighted the fact that the league is starting soon, and marketed our club to a good few people.
Instead SPA are getting that opportunity.
Why?
Because the MFA are a bunch of anal amateurs, who wouldn't change their precious schedule to help City.
I don't really care about Derby, but the mean-spirited attitude of the MFA will only hold City back.

MFA OUT !

**Munsterfan** · 05/03/2004, 6:37 PM

Originally posted by A face
I take it you mean 20,000 seater ..... and just to make things clear .... City, if tenants ... wouldn't get a bean from the bar in Musser. They wouldn't get a bean from the other facilities, hence they would be of no benifit to City, unless they were to avail of them.

They only way to go into a partnership in a stadium would be 50/50 split down the middle and to appoint staff to run different sections.

If it were any other way ... City could not get the maximum benifit from their efforts, and it could only be considered a waste.

How can you be so sure it would work out like that ? It would be a new venture, and everything would be there to be agreed. Wouldn't it be great to have a Lennox's chipper within the stadium ? As regards the bars, I'm sure City can work out a percentage while they would have all the corporate boxes for their matches to sell. The worst thing is to think small on this. I was in Perpignan last year, and it is a city of about 60,000 but are building a stadium to cater for about 15,000.

**A face** · 05/03/2004, 9:33 PM

Originally posted by Munsterfan
How can you be so sure it would work out like that ? It would be a new venture, and everything would be there to be agreed. Wouldn't it be great to have a Lennox's chipper within the stadium ? As regards the bars, I'm sure City can work out a percentage while they would have all the corporate boxes for their matches to sell. The worst thing is to think small on this. I was in Perpignan last year, and it is a city of about 60,000 but are building a stadium to cater for about 15,000.

I totally agree with you. but if doesn't pan out that way then it should be a non runner.

Basically ... i think City has huge potential if it could get itself making money from bars, function rooms etc. The reason i am throwing caution to the wind is fear of the potential not being realised.

If City were to a agree to a sub standard deal, it would be "lock and load boys, we are aimming for the foot !!" simple as.

I think the Musgrave park could be a great venue .... but only if City were getting a proper slice of the cake.