What can be done to improve the League of Ireland?

**pineapple stu** · 29/12/2009, 6:42 PM

The LoI SCs were asked how many tickets they wanted and were then given them. I think that's close enough.

You can't have an indefinite amount of tickets available to LoI SCs cos it'd screw over existing block bookers. "Sorry - don't have a ticket for you this time; I know you've been to all the crap games in the campaign, but someone in Monaghan wants a ticket for the Italy game, so tough."

**weecountyman** · 30/12/2009, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by BYCTWD

18 team Premier, abolish the First, regionalised A league.

This is the easiest way forward, but keeping it simple is not something the FAI would be very good at. We have the beginnings of a pyramid system now, but how would it work below the Premier. 18 teams in the Premier, 2 feeder A's of 16 each, 4 senior leagues of 16 each and then links further into regional senior leagues.

2 up to the Premier and 2 down, same for the leagues below. A problem is bound to arrive when someone finishes top in a league below Premier and they don't have the ground or finances to go up. This is where local council co-operation comes into play.

**TheBoss** · 30/12/2009, 1:42 PM

My thoughts are that is should be 3 tier system for various reasons.

Tier 1: 14 Team Premier
Tier 2: 11 Team North Division & South Division
Tier 3: 8 Team 4 Provincial Divisions

Bottom 2 in the Premier go into group play-offs with the winners of the North & South Divisions, top 2 in the group go into the Premier and the losing 2 into Tier 2.

The 2 bottom placed teams in North & South Divisions go into group play-offs aswell, the bottom placed North team would play the Ulster and Connaught winners in a 3 team group and bottom placed South team would play the Leinster and Munster winners in a 3 team group, with the winners of each group go into Tier 2 and bottom 2 into Tier 3.

I think this can create some local interest as the whole country can be involved in some way.

**thischarmingman** · 30/12/2009, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by endabob1

They could give free entry to LOI games with every International ticket.

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Then LoI clubs would go broke. Remember the roaring success that was the An Post promo?

Surely the effects wouldn't be that bad? Free entry to a LOI game with an international ticket- most wouldn't think of going anyway and at least this way they have a chance to catch the bug. When you discount season ticket holders, how many of the remaining 50-1000 odd at a LOI game are regular international attendees anyway?

Worst case scenario, a club loses out on maybe 100 tickets (I'll admit this isn't very scientific) that would otherwise have been bought.
Best case scenario, an extra few thousand people floating around Dublin on a Friday night take advantage of their free ticket and go to a game.

If even a tenth of the attendance at a big international went to a game you're talking a mammoth leap in the overall LOI attandance that weekend. And there's the chance they might come back.

**weecountyman** · 30/12/2009, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by TheBoss

My thoughts are that is should be 3 tier system for various reasons.

Tier 1: 14 Team Premier
Tier 2: 11 Team North Division & South Division
Tier 3: 8 Team 4 Provincial Divisions

Bottom 2 in the Premier go into group play-offs with the winners of the North & South Divisions, top 2 in the group go into the Premier and the losing 2 into Tier 2.

The 2 bottom placed teams in North & South Divisions go into group play-offs aswell, the bottom placed North team would play the Ulster and Connaught winners in a 3 team group and bottom placed South team would play the Leinster and Munster winners in a 3 team group, with the winners of each group go into Tier 2 and bottom 2 into Tier 3.

I think this can create some local interest as the whole country can be involved in some way.

A 14 team top division looks a little better, but will they play 2 rounds of games?

As for the lower tiers, I think 11 and 8 team leagues might be a little too small and end up breeding contempt or over familiarity. Why not 14 all the way?

**pineapple stu** · 30/12/2009, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by thischarmingman

Surely the effects wouldn't be that bad?

I was exaggerating a little, but look at the An Post promo - regular fans went out of their way to use the vouchers at rival clubs. Clubs were giving out about them a lot, as I recall (there's a thread on it here). There were big queues with the vouchers at the gates for our away game in Tolka. We had 200+ Shels fans at our game against Longford almost all using the vouchers. The second is a bad example obviously (cos they probably wouldn't have gone otherwise as it wasn't a Shels game), but that kind of stuff was happening a fair bit. Times it by five Ireland games in a year, and you'll cost clubs a lot of money.

**danthesaint** · 30/12/2009, 4:19 PM

1) change it to a 14/16 team league, altho it could affect attendance, people would rather see pats vs bohs, than pats v UCD so if we were to play a pats and ucd game we will lose an extra pats and bohs game.

2) increase the price of an ireland ticket say by a fiver and put the money into a fund for LOI clubs, i know people will complain but if they werent ****ing off to manchester, liverpool and glasgow we probably wouldnt be in this mess.

3) increase jerseys etc for sports shops, champion etc

4) a club in every county would be great, then there would be no excuse "we have no local team"

**pineapple stu** · 30/12/2009, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by danthesaint

2) increase the price of an ireland ticket say by a fiver and put the money into a fund for LOI clubs, i know people will complain but if they werent ****ing off to manchester, liverpool and glasgow we probably wouldnt be in this mess.

Meh. Better off teaching the clubs what to do with the money first. No point giving some of the idiots in charge of clubs more money.

**danthesaint** · 30/12/2009, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Meh. Better off teaching the clubs what to do with the money first. No point giving some of the idiots in charge of clubs more money.

true thats probably another reason why we are in the mess we are now

**weecountyman** · 30/12/2009, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Meh. Better off teaching the clubs what to do with the money first. No point giving some of the idiots in charge of clubs more money.

Why don't the FAI hire and install an accountant at every club, this is how it works in major sports in North America. For example, in QMJHL (Quebec Major Junior Hockey League) the governing body appoint an official to each club (normally chosen locally) to act as a "Sanctioning Supervisor". This person sends weekly reports back to HQ and makes sure that wage spends are correct, what's taken at the gate is registered and even gives assistance and advice on fundraising. One team, I think in Nova Scotia, were caught fiddling gate money and were fined 50,000 dollars, prevented from hiring new players or staff for 12months and most importantly docked 20points. There were no appeals upheld and they knew from the start they were in the wrong (this was in 1998-99).

I don't know if it could work in Ireland, but it would give a genuinely interested person a chance to work in sport, create extra jobs and I'm pretty certain the Sports Council would subsidise it somehow. Eventually ost of these people move up in the game, I do remember the whistleblower in Nova Scotia was brought up to Head Office and then 2 years ago had moved into the Coyotes organisation as compliance officer. Maybe it might fly in Ireland but it's worth a try.

**brianw82** · 30/12/2009, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by weecountyman

Why don't the FAI hire and install an accountant at every club, this is how it works in major sports in North America. For example, in QMJHL (Quebec Major Junior Hockey League) the governing body appoint an official to each club (normally chosen locally) to act as a "Sanctioning Supervisor". This person sends weekly reports back to HQ and makes sure that wage spends are correct, what's taken at the gate is registered and even gives assistance and advice on fundraising. One team, I think in Nova Scotia, were caught fiddling gate money and were fined 50,000 dollars, prevented from hiring new players or staff for 12months and most importantly docked 20points. There were no appeals upheld and they knew from the start they were in the wrong (this was in 1998-99).

I don't know if it could work in Ireland, but it would give a genuinely interested person a chance to work in sport, create extra jobs and I'm pretty certain the Sports Council would subsidise it somehow. Eventually ost of these people move up in the game, I do remember the whistleblower in Nova Scotia was brought up to Head Office and then 2 years ago had moved into the Coyotes organisation as compliance officer. Maybe it might fly in Ireland but it's worth a try.

Good suggestion.

Again though, people in this thread going on and on about X-team leagues when this is the type of stuff that needs to be implemented first.

**pineapple stu** · 30/12/2009, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by weecountyman

Why don't the FAI hire and install an accountant at every club, this is how it works in major sports in North America. For example, in QMJHL (Quebec Major Junior Hockey League) the governing body appoint an official to each club (normally chosen locally) to act as a "Sanctioning Supervisor". This person sends weekly reports back to HQ and makes sure that wage spends are correct, what's taken at the gate is registered and even gives assistance and advice on fundraising.

Sounds vaguely similar - if less detailed - to the monthly management accounts each LoI club is required to submit.

**danthesaint** · 30/12/2009, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by weecountyman

Why don't the FAI hire and install an accountant at every club, this is how it works in major sports in North America. For example, in QMJHL (Quebec Major Junior Hockey League) the governing body appoint an official to each club (normally chosen locally) to act as a "Sanctioning Supervisor". This person sends weekly reports back to HQ and makes sure that wage spends are correct, what's taken at the gate is registered and even gives assistance and advice on fundraising. One team, I think in Nova Scotia, were caught fiddling gate money and were fined 50,000 dollars, prevented from hiring new players or staff for 12months and most importantly docked 20points. There were no appeals upheld and they knew from the start they were in the wrong (this was in 1998-99).

I don't know if it could work in Ireland, but it would give a genuinely interested person a chance to work in sport, create extra jobs and I'm pretty certain the Sports Council would subsidise it somehow. Eventually ost of these people move up in the game, I do remember the whistleblower in Nova Scotia was brought up to Head Office and then 2 years ago had moved into the Coyotes organisation as compliance officer. Maybe it might fly in Ireland but it's worth a try.

thats a good idea, pity nobody in the fai will think of it tho

**weecountyman** · 30/12/2009, 7:51 PM

I think it's a difference in North American law and Irish. Salary caps, set ticket and merchandise prices and full co-operation between local city/regional councils and "franchises" are fully enforced with federal law. In Ireland you have clowns like TNB who doesn't bother waiting for meetings, doesn't pay players and staff, and basically clubs can go to court and win when ethically and legally they're totally wrong.

In some small hockey league (not picking on the sport just that I know a good bit about it in North America) I think it was the Colonial League, a farm team for Florida in, I think, Louisiana, failed an inspection on minimum standards for fan comfort (really) and were to be thrown out of the league. The parent club rocked up, did what was needed and saved the day, the sport has cemented it's place since. I don't see the FAI taking such close control on football in Ireland so that clubs can be hammered if one of their feeder teams (A or 20's) isn't up to scratch or has a problem.

One step forward for the LOI would be to have a set standard for matchday entertainment and service provision. Even the sky leagues in England and Scotland have their faults, but you take in a game in the 3rd tier in Germany and the atmosphere and attendance, as well as entertainment and facilities are well worth it. I took in a few games of in the old regional league North some years back and because of laws set by the German FA and football league, clubs have to provide quality on matchday or face a 3 strike type rule. Again each club in the top 3 leagues have an appointed match day assessor (from the regional federation) and it works well from what I've heard.

**TheBoss** · 30/12/2009, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by weecountyman

A 14 team top division looks a little better, but will they play 2 rounds of games?

As for the lower tiers, I think 11 and 8 team leagues might be a little too small and end up breeding contempt or over familiarity. Why not 14 all the way?

Yes, 26 games.

I think the teams in the lower reaches need some motivation to play better teams in higher leagues. The lesser games would allow for this competitive edge.

**culloty82** · 31/12/2009, 8:04 AM

Originally Posted by weecountyman

A 14 team top division looks a little better, but will they play 2 rounds of games?

As for the lower tiers, I think 11 and 8 team leagues might be a little too small and end up breeding contempt or over familiarity. Why not 14 all the way?

14 for each division would cover all the current senior clubs in the first two tiers, and the most promising clubs in regional and county leagues would then make up Tier 3. If a promoted team hasn't adequate finances/infrastructure, the place would pass to the next team that has, while a club that goes into examinership would be automatically relegated for the following season or docked 20 points in the bottom division.

**weecountyman** · 31/12/2009, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by culloty82

14 for each division would cover all the current senior clubs in the first two tiers, and the most promising clubs in regional and county leagues would then make up Tier 3. If a promoted team hasn't adequate finances/infrastructure, the place would pass to the next team that has, while a club that goes into examinership would be automatically relegated for the following season or docked 20 points in the bottom division.

The one problem I can see, right away, no matter what form we can think of, is simply this. For the clubs to embrace this would be like turkeys voting for Christmas! They would no longer be able to fiddle, avoid and mess. Ownerships would become very clear and it would end up with most clubs owned at least 40% by supporters (in order to avoid the complete NAm model). Also the FAI would never want to take it on board as it would mean more pressure on them to produce results, co-ordinate and officiate. In practice it would work, a strong national association with a strong national league with decently attended matches taking place in decent stadia in decent conditions with the next generation catered for.

One very important piece of criteria for entry into any pro or semi-pro or even high end amateur is the system beneath the first team. I'm not quite sure how it would work in Ireland, but in many European countries any senior club has it's 1st team, a u-20/reserve side and at least 6 teams below these down to under-10 level playing under the same name and administration. And for entry to the top flight, now I may be wrong for England, but EPL teams must have an academy plus youth set up in order to be licenced. In France all clubs must put in 20-40 man hours to schools in the vicinity (they get council grants for this).

**Réiteoir** · 31/12/2009, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by TheBoss

Yes, 26 games.

I think the teams in the lower reaches need some motivation to play better teams in higher leagues. The lesser games would allow for this competitive edge.

How about - 14 team League - everyone plays each other twice - then the League splits right in the middle into a bottom 7 and top 7 - who then play the other 6 teams in their bit twice again to decide relegation/the title/Europe.

Means we get a 38 game season - which would be the same as a 20 team division

**TheBoss** · 31/12/2009, 2:39 PM

I think that playing teams 4 times like it is at the moment, just does not work, and then add in cup games, you could end up playing the same team about 6/7 times, and that for me would take away the edge when playing each other and lead to more disappointing games, as the teams virtually know each others game very well.