Public Sector Cost-Cutting

**passinginterest** · 07/12/2009, 9:51 AM

Got a nice laugh out of walking up to the Arc de Triumph on Friday to see the notice "Closed due to strike by civil servants", terrible to see the talks have collapsed, there will inevitably be more strikes now as this will be a hatchet job by a totally inept government. This is the kind of think that could add years to the recession.

**Macy** · 07/12/2009, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by passinginterest

there will inevitably be more strikes now as this will be a hatchet job by a totally inept government. This is the kind of think that could add years to the recession.

They've been shambolic. If they were going to cut pay regardless, they should've done it when they introduced the "pension" levy and not wasted time on talks. Instead we've had nine months of hoarding instead because of the uncertainty, when they weren't going to do a deal anyway. Or they were going to do a deal and didn't because of the reaction, not because of the merits or otherwise. They're clueless.

**Ringo** · 07/12/2009, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Macy

He's wrong, because the Irish are to thick and/or lazy to stand up for themselves. Do you think a Government in any democracy would've survived to even be in a position to give this budget, given they were the main cause of it? Do you think in most countries the population would've fallen hook, line and sinker for the divide and conquer tactics of making it worker v worker?.

Its suits the opposition to have a budget like this brought in by FF. If they come to power soon they won't change any of it back. No matter who�s responsible, we need to bring the spending under control.

**John83** · 07/12/2009, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Macy

I think public servanst might accept cuts, if they see the top boys taking circa 25%. I doubt that will happen, as TD and Ministers pay is linked to the top public servants, it'll be some lip service amount instead. People have also been consistent in calling for an overall economic plan to provide context for any cuts. We are still waiting for the Government to produce one.

The TDs took a 10% pay cut a few months ago (I think), and are now taking a further 20% cut. At what point does this argument begin to look ignorant?

**Fr Damo** · 07/12/2009, 2:16 PM

Biffo is taking a 14% cut so I would expect ministers to impose a 10-12% cut on themselves (that sounds soo stupid) and TDs anywhere 7.5% - 10%. And anybody else in the public service on comparable pay scales to the aforementioned can expect the same. Middle earners on 40 - 60k will be hit by a 5% i would think. Overtime is a thing of history as there are 3.5m days of capacity in the public sector at present. That is, per the 12 days the unions put forward!

Will the budget be passed is the next question!!

**Macy** · 07/12/2009, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by John83

The TDs took a 10% pay cut a few months ago (I think), and are now taking a further 20% cut. At what point does this argument begin to look ignorant?

They pay the pension levy, which is up to 10% on some of their earnings. Any other cuts mentioned are to be implemented in the next Dail (it's not like they're the Government, with a majority, who could change the legislation or anything).

If they had their pay cut by an additional 20%, if it's on their total earnings and depending on what the average cut is, and is before any furture higher renumeration board recommendations, there may be some element of "pain sharing". If it's 10-15% with an average of 6%, they will deserve no credit. And they (the Government) deserve no feckin credit, as the situation is their making anyway!

**bennocelt** · 07/12/2009, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by John83

The TDs took a 10% pay cut a few months ago (I think), and are now taking a further 20% cut. At what point does this argument begin to look ignorant?

Not until they take a 50% pay cut

**mypost** · 07/12/2009, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Will the budget be passed is the next question!!

Is it a question?

Of course it will be passed, every other one has been passed since 1982, when FF were not in power. The Greens sold their souls to FF last October, the Independents are mostly ex-FFers, and they'll stand to a man behind Cowen as they did 6 months ago in the confidence vote, the man who has failed to get a deal 3 times now with the social partners since assuming office.

More generally, there are 6 sitting days after the budget before the Dail splits up for 6 weeks. By then, the cuts will be in, and the uproar will be long gone.

**Fr Damo** · 07/12/2009, 4:41 PM

On reflection you are probably right mypost... but just.

**old git** · 07/12/2009, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by Fr Damo

Biffo is taking a 14% cut so I would expect ministers to impose a 10-12% cut on themselves (that sounds soo stupid) and TDs anywhere 7.5% - 10%. And anybody else in the public service on comparable pay scales to the aforementioned can expect the same. Middle earners on 40 - 60k will be hit by a 5% i would think. Overtime is a thing of history as there are 3.5m days of capacity in the public sector at present. That is, per the 12 days the unions put forward!

Will the budget be passed is the next question!!

poor old tds can they really afford cuts... how about people on welfare ... looking at 10 % cut in child benefit and 4% on dole so a family may lose 14% of their income !!!!

makes a joke of tds taking their 7% - 12% cuts.

**Mr A** · 07/12/2009, 9:33 PM

Don't think your sums come anywhere near adding up there old git- child benefit would only be a small percentage of income.

Very scary edition of Prime Time on there, it seems social welfare fraud probably runs to €2-3 billion. The stats about towns around the border having more claimants than population were very damning. The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.

**Dodge** · 07/12/2009, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mr A

Very scary edition of Prime Time on there

Complete with evil slow mos and menacing music

The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.

Instead the budget will take money from public services

**old git** · 07/12/2009, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mr A

Don't think your sums come anywhere near adding up there old git- child benefit would only be a small percentage of income.

Very scary edition of Prime Time on there, it seems social welfare fraud probably runs to €2-3 billion. The stats about towns around the border having more claimants than population were very damning. The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.

yeah watched prime time tonight scary alright but showed up a lot of flaws in welfare system and welfare officals .. cannot understand how people have swindled state for 30,000, 60,000 and one woman over 100,000 over 14 years how these people have not been sent to jail .. christ some of them are still getting welfare payments.. why were resources not available during the so called celtic tiger boom years to clamp down on fraud !! as already said programme pointed a few fingers at welfare dept and officals

**bennocelt** · 07/12/2009, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by old git

poor old tds can they really afford cuts... how about people on welfare ... looking at 10 % cut in child benefit and 4% on dole so a family may lose 14% of their income !!!!

makes a joke of tds taking their 7% - 12% cuts.

Which is about 8 euro, wow
- thats about two pints

**osarusan** · 08/12/2009, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

Which is about 8 euro, wow
- thats about two pints

I'm glad you find humour in it.

**Ringo** · 08/12/2009, 6:04 AM

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern says the Government will not tolerate any industrial action by An Garda S�och�na.

Dermot Ahern was responding to the announcement earlier today by the Garda Representative Association that they will ballot its members for industrial action.

The Minister said the move was a challenge to the authority of the State and one which the Government would not countenance.

Mr Ahern said garda� 'are not being asked to take any more pain than anyone else'.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1207/gardai.html

**Macy** · 08/12/2009, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by mypost

Is it a question?

FF TD's and FF Gene Pool Independents voting against the Government in the National Interest? No. Only on really important matters, such as local organisation elections, do the moral people of FF spit the dummy and remove support....

Originally Posted by Mr A

Very scary edition of Prime Time on there, it seems social welfare fraud probably runs to �2-3 billion. The stats about towns around the border having more claimants than population were very damning. The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.

Only saw bits and pieces of the programme (plan to catch it on RTE Player). But a couple of general points. You'd wonder whether the move to direct bank transfer payments helped facilitate the fraud. If they had to go to the local post office to get their payments, they'd have to look someone in the eye at least, and you'd think it would cut down on welfare tourists to some degree.
I've no idea whether the �2-3 billion is accurate, but if it is it's a damning indictment of the Government that after 12 years in power that much is being lost to the state. A succession of FF Ministers must have had their eyes completely off the ball. That amount would cover both the proposed cuts in social welfare and public sector pay. If they could stop the fraud, we wouldn't need this thread (this year at least)!

**Mr A** · 08/12/2009, 9:01 AM

On the Prime Time thing- had to laugh at all the attempted interviews with the fraudsters. What a waste of time, sure only one of them in the whole episode actually spoke to them!

What really annoyed me was that people who'd stolen 10's of thousands only ever seemed to have to pay back 10k at most, and then usually at pathetically low weekly payments.