Public Sector Cost-Cutting

[Macy]

Paid sick leave and absenteeism isn't the preserve of the public sector. Please point me in the direction of hard evidence it is being abused across the entire sector (i.e. evidence it is being abused, not just rates without any comparison to other sectors).

[Fr Damo]

Paid sick leave and absenteeism isn't the preserve of the public sector. Please point me in the direction of hard evidence it is being abused across the entire sector (i.e. evidence it is being abused, not just rates without any comparison to other sectors).

I genuinley don't want to be part of the us and them argument that some in the press are happy to pedal. But........ It has been widley reported that absenteeism on a Monday and friday in the public sector are way above that of those in the private sector. Fact. It's backed up by both antidotal and employment records. Moreover it has been said there is an increase in and around bank holidays!
Granted, I would say instances of this have decreased in the recession but clerical grades accross the HSE, Dept of ed, County councils etc are all guilty of it. I regularily call on Co. Co. Work shops/ Garages, Engeneers with my work. I also call on private sector business and the level of Capital employeed in the public sector verses the provate secotor 3 to 5 fold. In otherwords, many tasks being undertaken by the public sector could be out sourced to the private sector and completed at a much less rate. Overstaffing is a big issue too. All in my limited experience that is!!

Why do the Dept of eduaction get a christmas shopping day btw? And banking days and church holidays in the Councils. Madness

[dahamsta]

It is abused across the board, so it should be dealt with at a general level.

Last I heard sick days were way down at the moment, strange coincidence that.

adam

[dahamsta]

Fr Damo, if you're going to claim that there's evidence, I think you should find and post it. Macy specifically asked for it above.

[Fr Damo]

Fr Damo, if you're going to claim that there's evidence, I think you should find and post it. Macy specifically asked for it above.

Below gives details of actual percentages of the best and worst offenders in the various Government Departments. I agree the report points out the level per 100 employees who have taken days off sick rather than an abuse but by the very nature of the levels being at 77 per hundred being off sick in the Property and Labortory dept it doesn't take much to work out they have been taking the mick.

from the Irsh Indi on Oct 23rd 09.

And there was another blow for public sector workers when it was revealed the average civil servant takes 11 sick days a year -- almost double the rate of absence in the private sector.
The report from the Comptroller and Auditor General emerged as the Government gets ready to slash €1.3bn from the public sector pay and pensions bill in December's Budget.
The report shows three out of five civil servants take leave and the direct cost of absenteeism is €64m. But the all-in cost to the country is reckoned to be double this amount.
Absenteeism
By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee.
Responding to the report, the Department of Finance pointed out that over 40pc of staff took no sick leave in 2007.
The department said an up-to-date and robust policy to manage sick leave was at an advanced stage of negotiation with the unions.
The investigation found the highest levels of sick leave were in the State Laboratory (77pc of employees had taken absence); the Property Registration Authority (76pc); the Department of Social and Family Affairs(69pc); the Public Appointments Service (67pc); the Central Statistics Office (67pc); the Chief State Solicitor Office (66pc); and the Director of Public Prosecutions (65pc).
Among the lower rates were the Department of Arts, Sport(42pc); theTaoiseach's office (43pc);Office of Public Works (44pc); and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (45pc).

[Dodge]

Doesn't mention Mondays or Fridays

FACT

this is such an idiotic debate btw. There are no large scale organisations to compare the PS figures to, and anecdotal evidence is nearly always bull****.

I say that as a current private Sector/ex Public sector worker

[Fr Damo]

Well I see it getting worse before it gets better, 300 jobs gone today @10k pa unemployement benifit is 3m euro needed by the social june 2010 onwards. And that's just today. Add in budget travel and EP mooney plus the catostrophic Jan I think we will see.
If we cannot borrow next year or worse still make repayments on bonds falling due we are in serious trouble. The 1.3B cuts to pay the government are looking for will seem like a bargin. I have said before I don't view it as us against them, i'm happy to have my pay cut 10% in Jan if needed. (and i know that reduces PAYE further) My pension has been put on hold by my employer already this year, i'm 33 and have 11 years under my belt so not bothered about it - If it means I keep my job where do I sign.

It'll will read.......

Non Union member.

[mypost]

HOw will cutting public servant pay help anyone with out a job?

Never said it would.

YOu then go into your usual rant about the economy.

Everything about the marches is connected to the economy.

HOw will cutting the public paybill help stimulate the economy?

It's not to stimulate the economy, it's designed to get the public expenses in order. Brussels have given us till 2013 to sort it out. And the government must find the €4 billion this year as instructed, march or no march.

Everyone wants the cuts to be distributed "fairly", as long as they're unaffected.

[Macy]

Below gives details of actual percentages of the best and worst offenders in the various Government Departments.

I also specifically asked "not just rates without any comparison to other sectors". Ah well.

Everyone wants the cuts to be distributed "fairly", as long as they're unaffected

Do people actually read other posts, never mind follow the wider real world debate? It's been said many times on this thread, other threads, by Trade Union spokespeople, that people are willing to take further cuts as part of a fair overall plan. Can you not accept that? And I'm choosing to ignore the hypocritical element of that comment given your past posts when other cuts have been suggested.

[Fr Damo]

I aint going to be drawn into this one, but the report does say Public sector take 11 sick days a year against the private sector average of 6.

And what this overall plan being put forward by the PS? I haven't heard it yet.

[Macy]

And what this overall plan being put forward by the PS? I haven't heard it yet.

The ICTU plan can be found on their website.

[Fr Damo]

Thanks Macy, I heard Begg on about stretching it out until 2017 but the problem for the country as I see it is the cost base now and the best and fastest way to address this is to reduce wages... the private sector are on with it through natural attrition and economics (supply & demand). We'll get no investment here otherwise. It talks about Taxing the 71Billon made by 1% of the population.... How & where is that "wealth"? Bank shares and crap property that's where.
It claims we have scope to borrow more due to the % to GDP. I note Italy Portugal, Greece are above us, spain just behind, the other member of the Pigs group.
Yes some of the recomendation are worth discussion but we don't have time just now., We need a cut in social welfare, a cut in PS pay, increase corporation tax to 15% and reduce Co Co business rates. reduce VAt but Increase green taxes and get rid of VRT. etc etc. There are a mulitude of ways. Is it that the PS sector think they are the only ones that are going to be hit. If so, it's purely down to bad communication. This is and will be economy wide over the next three to four years. Nobody is escaping this.
The strike is effing Madness.

[Macy]

Yes some of the recomendation are worth discussion but we don't have time just now.

Congress has been proposing this for the guts of a year now. We still have no alternative. Apparently we need NAMA because there isn't time to discuss anything else, well over a year since the "banking crisis" and with no end in sight. This is bullcrap that is used to avoid debate, and avoid making proper (and in all likelyhood tough) decisions for long term good.

The lack of an overall plan, the proposals to cut pay and welfare for short term balancing when it will increase future problems aren't making the hard decisions. They are making the feckin easy ones, especially in the spin that's accompanied it.

Is it that the PS sector think they are the only ones that are going to be hit. If so, it's purely down to bad communication. This is and will be economy wide over the next three to four years. Nobody is escaping this..

At the moment, the only things on the table are cuts in pay and welfare. Poor communication me arse. To repeat myself yet again, there is no plan, if there was a coherent plan people would accept cuts! There isn't, so people won't. If they do sit back and accept it, then they know they'll be hit again. As they were with the previous cut.

[Ash]

Dunno if its been posted earlier, too lazy to read back through it again, but
I was told yesterday that official notice of a strike next Thursday (3rd Dec) has
been issued

[Fr Damo]

Thanks Ash, was aware and indeed refering to that in my last post.

[BohsPartisan]

I aint going to be drawn into this one, but the report does say Public sector take 11 sick days a year against the private sector average of 6.

And what this overall plan being put forward by the PS? I haven't heard it yet.

Because in the public sector if you are seriously ill and are out for a year or two you are still considered to be employed but you are paid out of illness benefit the same as anyone out of the private sector is not from your department's payroll. So if you average it out obviously a secure job is going to show a higher number of sick days because people can go out sick for a year or two and still have a job to come back to.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It is abused across the board, so it should be dealt with at a general level.

Last I heard sick days were way down at the moment, strange coincidence that.

adam

By "across the board" do you mean across the entire Public sector or across the entire workforce.

I'd be surprised if absenteeism and sick leave isn't well down in the private sector ...and not neccessarily for any good reason to do with people deciding to get their act together, straighten up and fly right either.

By way of anecdote -a good friend of mine is being treated for a quite serious fungal infection of the lungs. He's not well, could get worse and should be out on the sick leave he's entitled to but is afraid to in case it makes his employer finger him for the next round of lay offs.

[dahamsta]

By "across the board" do you mean across the entire Public sector or across the entire workforce.

The latter.

I'd be surprised if absenteeism and sick leave isn't well down in the private sector ...and not neccessarily for any good reason to do with people deciding to get their act together, straighten up and fly right either.

Precisely my point. The flip side is that (I'd imagine) there's an awful lot more people using Facebook and boss keys now. It's a sad fact of life that the further we progress, the less people we actually need to do work; one that isn't being handled very well by those in power (again, across the board).

Unfortunately in some areas this does apply more to the public sector than the private sector, but it's probably balanced out by the fact that we'll always need teachers, nurses, doctors, clerical staff, etc. The issues now are different:

1. more and more work is being contracted out; and the longer we go at it, the more inappropriate it gets; and
2. more and more people are working in places they don't belong.

This it the elephant in the room in the health service, with ridiculous numbers of people sitting at desks pushing papers, because they were graded there, when most would would probably be better at, and happier doing, their job is they were still on the ground.

adam

[mypost]

It's been said many times on this thread, other threads, by Trade Union spokespeople, that people are willing to take further cuts as part of a fair overall plan. Can you not accept that?

It's not up to me to accept it, it's up to the Trade Unions to. Which to me, they are unwilling to do.

I'm choosing to ignore the hypocritical element of that comment given your past posts when other cuts have been suggested.

The past posts related to the JA/JB element of social welfare. Those who receive JA and JB are overwhelmingly made up of private sector people who are out of work, and at the bottom of the economic ladder.

Other social welfare payments, I have a different view on.

[Dunny]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1201/partnership.html