Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[Not Brazil]

But as regards the anthem, I have to ask you honestly where is the leadership on this issue from either the Amalgamation of NISC or the IFA? As stated the IFA commissioned a report on this issue, and the recommendation was to change the anthem and they IGNORED it.
So one would be forgiven for concluding that there is no real will to do anything about it. No?

On 2nd February, I will be participating in a cross community, advisory panel "workshop" that will ask the question "What are the remaining barriers to inclusion?" - this will be seperated into international and club football conclusions.

I have no doubt the Anthem issue will come up, and I've no doubt recognition will also be given to fact that many will never support the International side, given their political allegiances/beliefs.

I'm firmly in the "Anthem change" camp - I believe it strengthens the "Northern Irish" identity.

The chap who wrote the IFA commissioned report (someone who I have come to know very well through various FFA activities) will also be participating in the workshop - you never know, perhaps the question of why the recommendations re: anthem were not actioned will arise?

Anyway, the truth is the fanbase is divided on this - the IFA are not anti change per se, and if the fans wan it, it will happen.

It is an extremely contentious issue - splitting members of SC's right down the middle.

Numerous debates on OWC will confirm this.

It is a hot topic, and, you are absolutely correct, leadership is essential.

Leaders need to bring their people with them - sometimes that takes hard work, and effort...and a lot of persuasion and reasoning. It's doubly difficult when the leaders themselves are split.

Pro changers need to listen and understand why many fans wish to retain GSTQ - I cannot just simply dismiss those views as being a nuisance.

I'm not convinced that a simple change in anthem will attract many more from the nationalist community to Northern Ireland games -and, I don't believe that should be the primary reason for doing it.

Most "nationalists" that I know, and that is many, are happy to support the ROI - their support of the ROI is not because Northern Ireland play GSTQ.

Interestingly, if, hypotheticaly, there was a singular Irish team, the anthem issue would be an issue of contention, and a potential "barrier to inclusion" - ROI fans would have a contentious matter to deal with.

To some, losing the Tricolour, and ROI National Anthem wouldn't be a problem - to others, it would cause uproar.

[gspain]

It's all about the tone of that mocking though. As in being quite hateful and prevalent throughout that MB. So much so, that much of it can not be read by just 'anyone'.

Still the IFA must be very proud of such fans. And embarassed in contrast to their FfA.

Frankly there is a lot worse in the League of Ireland section here. Dundalk v Drogheda or Bohs v Rovers. It's called rivalry. Not to mention certain fans who celebrated a winking Portuguese winger or an Argentinian hand.

I know of at least 2 RC NI fans who actively want us to lose. One whom I brought to one of our games a few years surprised me by being clearly happy when we conceded and upset when we scored. Another whom I met with some of his mates prior to one of their away trips in a Dublin pub was clearly taking the p1ss about one of our recent results.

The IFA can be proud of their fans and their Football For All Campaign.

Why don't you pop up and take a look next time they are at home when we don't have a game?

[Not Brazil]

What are you talking about?

An AIL is a realistic possibility. Once that happens, anything is possible in terms of the national sides.

I don't think the 10,000 OWC paying punters are a big enough lobby to stop this momentum if it does in fact happen.

Dream on.

On what basis do you describe an AIL as a "realistic possibility"?

I'm curious to hear the substance to such an assertion - so far, I've got "you need to be positive".

The reason why there is no substance, is there is no evidence that it would make a marked, positive, difference to the domestic game.

It fact, it could harm many clubs.

I say that from a position of not being adverse to the concept, if it was properly thought out and articulated.

It will certainly not find favour with the majority of supporters of the two biggest Clubs in Northern Ireland, if it is perceived as a threat to the autonomy of the Northern Irish International side.

If you believe that an AIL would be a back door way to the eventual establishment of a, singular, Irish International side, you would need to think again.

It doesn't matter how many fans the IFA International representative side has - so long as the IFA wish to stay in business, they will stay in business.

It matters not a jot what the "momentum" is -the people that you need to convince are the IFA and supporters of it's international representative team.

There is no "momentum" whatsoever to merge amongst either.

Nobody, amongst the intelligensia on here, has been able to articulate one good reason why Northern Ireland fans should welcome the end of their team, to form part of something with which they would have little or no affinity.

[stiffler]

Any chance somebody summarising the last 40 pages into 1 paragraph? seems to be alot of guff talk from start to finish, with a few quality posts submerged somewhere amongst the bilge.

[janeymac]

Sorry Janey, this makes no sense. Other international teams playing NI will do their best to put one over NI. Unless England are in the same group the other teams are unlikely to give them a second thought. I know of no evidence whatever that other countries are that bothered about Britain having four teams, just as there's no real fuss about Denmark having to or somwhere like Andorra (which is basically a duty-free and ski resprt jointly run by France and Spain) appearing in every FIFA/ UEFA competition. Nobody in Spain or China is particularly upset about there being a NI or Wales team- they're much more likely to use it as a justification for getting they're team (if, say, they're a Basque or Galician or one of those 48 nationalities you mentioned). Or they're insistent that autonomous regions aren't allowed to set up their own teams. Nobody- apart from a few stirrers in Ireland- gives a flying fcuk about abolishing any exisiting teams against their fans' wishes. Monaco's club side seems to do well enough in UEFA competitions. Are they really that bothered about not playing the World Cup? I think not.

So, the sum total of the NI supporters ambitions is to be a thorn in the side of a 'big' team like Spain. I bet some of the smaller countries such as Lativa are thrilled to play against you - a ramshackle stadium that is falling apart and more importantly, an extremely limited interest in watching it on TV (less cash on the tv rights to develop or sustain their local game). Bet your bottom dollar they would prefer to be playing a country with a decent sized population at least.

And fyi, I remember reading that Monaco plays in some football tournament organised for those who are not accepted as members of FIFA - there are quite a few countries involved in it as far as I know, so it is obviously an issue. I'm sure FIFA love explaining to them why the Home Nations are a special case.

Football's a precarious career, but a player good enough to feature regularly in the Champions' League later stages at 21 has a better chance than most. Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.

Its not about developing his career - its about measuring himself up against those on the world stage. Its the one thing that is missing from Ryan Giggs cv which I think is a pity that he never played in a major tournament.

[Riddickcule]

Nobody, amongst the intelligensia on here, has been able to articulate one good reason why Northern Ireland fans should welcome the end of their team, to form part of something with which they would have little or no affinity.

And for the billionth time, it works in other sports, so why not football ?

[gspain]

They can be proud that Windsor Park is slightly less of a sectarian cess pit these days?

Credit where credit is due, things have improved, but the point remains that they needed a FFA campaign before stadium closures became an issue and the fans didn't self police the bile that spilled forth.

err Windsor Park is nothing like a sectarian cesspit.

I've been to Setanta Cup games, Irish league games cup finals and Northern Ireland games in recent years.

There was sectarian singing and comments in the late 80's/early 90's. The vents of November 1993 were totally blown out of proportion down here but notwithstanding that it was not a pleasant atmosphere. It is totally different now.

Why don't you go along and take a look?

[Not Brazil]

And for the billionth time, it works in other sports, so why not football ?

Once upon a time.....

There never was a "Northern Ireland" in these other sports...unfortunately, from your perspective, there is in football. Didn't used to be 2 teams, but.....

I never had the choice to watch "Northern Ireland" play rugby etc.

Seeing most of the players I follow at International level denied the opportunity to play International football holds no appeal.

If you think the ROI + Evans would be world beaters, you're deluded.

Sorry - holding up "other sports" in such a way doesn't cut the mustard.

[Not Brazil]

Its the one thing that is missing from Ryan Giggs cv which I think is a pity that he never played in a major tournament.

If only Wales had merged with England eh?

[dantheman]

Good man. I was in Chorzow and thought it a fair result, we hardly threw away a win.

2 point dropped when you are qualifying for the World Cup!

Aye, like I said it's used by three UEFA members- NI, Liechtenstein and England.

No. Liechenstein uses the same hymn, but NI and England use the same anthem (except the NI fans sing two more words than the English ). This does not do your argument against a Team UK any favours, the fact that you choose to use the UK anthem as your own?

Yes, there's a will- shared by me personally. No, it isn't a majority will or a high-priority issue at present. I hope that will change.

Well hoping something will change doesn't really inspire any one with confidence!!
You can't really give off when people rightly criticise the IFA or the Amalgamation.

Come on, either it's mild- little more than banter really- or you could have posted something that really was blatantly hateful. You can find that easily on most web boards, including this one.

I can find much worse very quickly. As stated that particular example was against the hypocrisy of one particular poster.

You could argue whether it was objective or subjective, but when I was a moderator and Ardee Bhoy and co. turned up with their nonsense about planter paranoia, unionists not being really Irish and the like, I had a pretty easy decision. it was moronic and sectarian, so it got zapped.

A decision you made, but not engaging in debate is hardly a mature way to go. I acknowledge people will go on that website just to slate NI team. They dont last long, but genuine posters are also talked down or removed.

If you can't have a reasonable debate on issued like this on your main fans forum then there is little hope for FFA.

No, read it again more carefully. I said NI fans were genuinely Irish and don't want their genuinely Irish NI team to be abolished. Can't see where you get wanting nothing to do with other Irish football fans from that?

I take your point in theory, but that is hardly the practise on the ground. Going into Windsor Park with an Ireland T-Shirt would not be well received.

An odd definition. Aren't the other 200-odd countries in FIFA not proper international teams then?

Only NI and the ROI directly apply to people born in NI (as per the GFA).

Look, there's still a current act on the Brit statute book that says shagging the heir to the throne's missus is treason punishable by death. Doesn't mean it's relevant to whether the NI team should be abolsihed. Pretty much everyone would agree that Britain and the Republic of Ireland are two separate countries, so each is foreign to the other. Maybe not as foreign as San Marino or Andorra, but still foreign.

You stated the age of the act, that has nothing to do with its relevance. It is simply not true that say Donegal is foreign from Belfast. I don't see why you can't understand this.

Ha ha. To be a NI fan you need merely support NI. If you think the team should be abolished, as many on this thread do, then pretty obviously you ain't a NI fan.

No but if you support NI because it currently exists but would prefer an All-Ireland team then are you not a true NI fan. This hardly gives rise to producing a fan base representative of the wider NI community.

I won't comment on such people's intelligence. It's more likely that they don't actually want a unified team by consensus, is it not?

That I don't know.

Dan, I think you'll find there's a pretty fundamental reason why Welsh and Scottish fans wouldn't be too keen on NI no longer having a separate international side within Britain. Do I need to spell it out for you?

No need to spell anything out as you didn't read what I said! I never stated that Wales/Scotland wanted a Team UK. You also seem to think that the merging of the FAI/IFA would affect the scots or welsh teams. That would probably not be the case.
I said that the playing of GSTQ at their grounds was not received well. I can understand their bemusement of course, as they sensibly have anthems of their own. As does every team in the world except for two, England and NI. Of these two, only NI's is contentious. This is hardly a good place to be in.

Aye, their fans barracked God Save the Queen, so we just sang it all the louder. It's just pantomime villainy anyway- only a minority in both Wales and Scotland in every election and poll want independence. In practice GSTQ isn't that big a problem for them either when they play NI or generally.

Sweet Jesus. He who shouts loudest is not necessarily right.

As regards polls, this is misleading. The vote for independence does not translate into national identity, as you well know is the same in NI. Most Scots/Welsh identify themselves as Scottish/Welsh first.

The Linfield deal although probably distorting of competition within the Irish League, isn't really evidence of anti-nationalist bias, is it? The disgraceful treatment of Belfast Celtic and Derry City was decades, even generations ago. Let's move on.

As Linfield was an anti-Catholic club I suggest that it actually was. Linfield have dropped their sectarian signing policy, unique amongst IL clubs. Given that they were the favoured club of the IFA is hardly something to be proud of. We'll move on when the issues are dealt with (ie the deal stated).

They're already doing both. I take your broad point.

They're not really, as you anthem point above demonstrates. Sadly.

[dantheman]

The IFA's FFA programme was not formed out of "guilt"

This is true, the IFA would have continued on ad infinitum unless some fans made the effort to improve the atmosphere. They deserve credit

[dantheman]

Any chance somebody summarising the last 40 pages into 1 paragraph? seems to be alot of guff talk from start to finish, with a few quality posts submerged somewhere amongst the bilge.

This is the greatest thread of all time. On any forum!

[Not Brazil]

As Linfield was an anti-Catholic club I suggest that it actually was. Linfield have dropped their sectarian signing policy, unique amongst IL clubs

When did they drop that dan?

Did anybody tell Gerry Morgan about it?

You are aware that Linfield FC have one of the most "mixed " playing staffs on the island today ie. in 2009?

Moved on - as the saying goes.

[dantheman]

On 2nd February, I will be participating in a cross community, advisory panel "workshop" that will ask the question "What are the remaining barriers to inclusion?" - this will be seperated into international and club football conclusions.

I have no doubt the Anthem issue will come up, and I've no doubt recognition will also be given to fact that many will never support the International side, given their political allegiances/beliefs.

I'm firmly in the "Anthem change" camp - I believe it strengthens the "Northern Irish" identity.

The chap who wrote the IFA commissioned report (someone who I have come to know very well through various FFA activities) will also be participating in the workshop - you never know, perhaps the question of why the recommendations re: anthem were not actioned will arise?

Anyway, the truth is the fanbase is divided on this - the IFA are not anti change per se, and if the fans wan it, it will happen.

It is an extremely contentious issue - splitting members of SC's right down the middle.

Numerous debates on OWC will confirm this.

It is a hot topic, and, you are absolutely correct, leadership is essential.

Leaders need to bring their people with them - sometimes that takes hard work, and effort...and a lot of persuasion and reasoning. It's doubly difficult when the leaders themselves are split.

Pro changers need to listen and understand why many fans wish to retain GSTQ - I cannot just simply dismiss those views as being a nuisance.

I'm not convinced that a simple change in anthem will attract many more from the nationalist community to Northern Ireland games -and, I don't believe that should be the primary reason for doing it.

Most "nationalists" that I know, and that is many, are happy to support the ROI - their support of the ROI is not because Northern Ireland play GSTQ.

Interestingly, if, hypotheticaly, there was a singular Irish team, the anthem issue would be an issue of contention, and a potential "barrier to inclusion" - ROI fans would have a contentious matter to deal with.

To some, losing the Tricolour, and ROI National Anthem wouldn't be a problem - to others, it would cause uproar.

Well that's a bit more like it.
Any efforts to create a "Northern Irish" team and not a British "Northern Irish" team Should be welcomed. I am amazed that this report was not implemented. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

Hopefully some leadership from the IFA and the fans will emerge.

[Not Brazil]

This is true, the IFA would have continued on ad infinitum unless some fans made the effort to improve the atmosphere. They deserve credit

Perhaps it might have occured to people that many of us (Northern Ireland supporters) don't like sectarianism one little bit?

Perhaps the penny dropped that sectarianism was having a negative effect on the IFA, not least financially?

Maybe some smart people concluded that sectarianism is just plain, err, wrong?

Maybe those who care (both at the IFA and amongst the fans) should just say "fcuk this, why bother?"

[Not Brazil]

Well that's a bit more like it.
Any efforts to create a "Northern Irish" team and not a British "Northern Irish" team Should be welcomed.

I couldn't agree more - and, furthermore, I don't think that diminishes the "Britishness" of any individual.

[dantheman]

When did they drop that dan?

Did anybody tell Gerry Morgan about it?

You are aware that Linfield FC have one of the most "mixed " playing staffs on the island today ie. in 2009?

Moved on - as the saying goes.

They have not moved on! The deal is still there!

The deal that the IFA signed with the Linfield occured BEFORE Linfield changed their signing policy. That was my point.

[Riddickcule]

We all know it's gonna happen eventually so lets say we wrap it up eh?

[peadar1987]

Is this poo-flinging contest still going on?!

[Not Brazil]

They have not moved on! The deal is still there!

The deal that the IFA signed with the Linfield occured BEFORE Linfield changed their signing policy. That was my point.

By any stretch of the imagination, Linfield FC have certainly moved on, in terms of it's playing staff.

The current "deal" between Linfield FC and the IFA was overseen by another party - as I suspect you well know.

Anyway, the current contract will soon be renegotiated, as part of the redevelopment plan for Windsor Park - again, it'll be a condition of another party with a vested interest.

Can I ask when this "No Catholics policy" came into place at Linfield FC - was it in the Club rules?

I was reading recently about one of our players (he's named after a previous Pope) being the subject of bigoted abuse at the hands of local nationalists/republicans in the (not very unionist) area from which he hails.

I also recently found myself in the home of a relative of another of our players, in the heart of nationalist/republican West Belfast, who told me of the pride the player had in being a Linfield player.

Two years ago I went to speak with a youth group on the Falls Road - I asked why they wanted me to come talk with them.

The reason was that two local kids, members of the youth club, had recently signed for Linfield and were getting some abuse.

If someone had told me 10 years ago that I'd be standing on the Falls Road, with two kids in Celtic tracksuits with Linfield shirts underneath, I don't think I'd have believed them. The kids spoke of how welcome they felt at Linfield, and how they enjoyed playing for the Club.

I'm minded of a youth match a couple of years back between St Oliver Plunkett and Linfield - Jim Magilton was there (former SOP player?) - he spoke about his admiration for the kid playing centre forward for the Blues, and asked where he was from. When told "about three doors down from your ma's house Jim", he near choked.

I think of the Drogheda fans who were guests of Linfield supporters on the Shankill Road before a Setanta Cup game - I think of the friendships forged, and the respect shown for differences (That was captured on the local news, and is still on Youtube)

You see, these are the things that have the power to unite - to continue demonising serves only to destroy.

I have to say, I think things are moving on at Windsor Park.