Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[peadar1987]

There has never been wall to wall coverage of European footbal(other than two british leagues) in Ireland. That is why you never really get Real Madrid fans here like irish people who support english clubs.

We're seeing this more and more now. Ask a classroom of kids who they support, and there'll be the usual Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Celtic but I'll bet there's at least one who claims to be a Barcelona, Real Madrid, or AC Milan fan as well. And we didn't have that 10 years ago when I was starting secondary school.

[-lamb-]

Would Larne gain anything from promotion? With respect, they are never going to win the Irish League. When Larne fans go to the top of the mountian, is getting hammered a couple of times a year by Linfield and the Glens what they see in the promised land?

Would there not be more fun in a provincial division without teams they can never hope to compete with, which they might win on a good year?

there's no way that would that be more appealing, not to any club i don't think.
i've never gone along with the view of playing it safe in a lower league just for wins. a football team should always strive to be at as high a level as they possibly can be. how many teams in the loi or il will never win it? there are plenty without any chance, yet they still plug away and try. if you aren't in, you can't win.
pretty much any team going into a top league would benefit with larger crowds and, if they are sensible, their added income from gates, sponsorship and league money should cover their added wage outgoings.
i should also point out that while larne were in the top league both glenavon and crusaders were relegated and c'ville narrowly escaped relegation through a playoff.
see? picking teams for leagues isn't as clearcut and easy as it seems.

[JohnB]

That's fair enough. If it helps, even someone like my good self would be more than happy to go to Belfast for every match for an UI team!

Fair play to you, but I doubt you're representative of the main body of support. Do you live in Belfast?

Though part of the problem with the rugby in Beal-feirste, is the inevitable issues with flag and anthem, not to mention the stadium!
Though you don't find may Irish people complaining about Stormont (apart from the weather!) for a UI cricket team or people from greater Ulster going to Casement for GAA Finals !

As far as I know, major Ulster-based games in GAA take place in Monaghan. Cricket? They play in Belfast and Dublin, but I think rugby is a much better comparison, given that very few people go to cricket, bar the times e.g. Australia visit. Rugby? I think Ravenhill is perfect for the smaller games, but the decision by the IRFU to treat Belfast as an away venue sends out a very strong message.

After all, as many Nordie fans keep parroting the FAI broke away from the IFA. And we'd mainly agree, at best are both full of well-meaning incompetents. So you'd better get on and build the Pairce de Maze or whatever.....

Yip, we're both hamstrung by a bunch of ****wits at the FAs. I think though thankfully we're sticking with Windsor, rather than going with an out-of-town stadium. A few pints in south Belfast and a stroll down the hill to the ground is hard to beat ,even if the ground is a bit of a dump.

[The Fly]

Rugby? I think Ravenhill is perfect for the smaller games, but the decision by the IRFU to treat Belfast as an away venue sends out a very strong message.

Come on now - be serious!
Do you really expect the Irish rugby team to stand for 'God Save the Queen.'

[-lamb-]

but its ok to ask players from northern ireland to stand for the solider's song under a tricolour? our players have the decency to do it when a game is in dublin, but it can't be expected to return the gesture when the game is in belfast?
can't you see the irony of that? and here i was thinking the irish rugby team represented EVERYONE on the island........only when it suits, only when it suits........

[The Fly]

but its ok to ask players from northern ireland to stand for the solider's song under a tricolour? our players have the decency to do it when a game is in dublin, but it can't be expected to return the gesture when the game is in belfast?
can't you see the irony of that? and here i was thinking the irish rugby team represented EVERYONE on the island........only when it suits, only when it suits........

You are applying the insular 'logic' of Northern Ireland, to the island as a whole.

If Northern Ireland had it's own distinct anthem, then that should be played before Ireland's Call. The idea that the UK national anthem should be played for an Irish team - in any sport, is ridiculous. It would be completely farcical for the Irish rugby team to stand for GSTQ - the anthem of the English rugby team.

Even people in Britain would find it hilarious, and just a little strange!

[-lamb-]

so it's fine to play the soldier's song when an international rugby game is played in dublin as a courtesy to the host, yet not ok to play god save the queen as a courtesy to the host when an international rugby game is played in belfast?
wow, the hypocrisy in that is palpable. can you genuinely not see how one sided that is for what is supposed to be for all?

[The Fly]

so it's fine to play the soldier's song when an international rugby game is played in dublin as a courtesy to the host, yet not ok to play god save the queen as a courtesy to the host when an international rugby game is played in belfast?
wow, the hypocrisy in that is palpable. can you genuinely not see how one sided that is for what is supposed to be for all?

lamb, again you are applying an insular 'Northern Ireland' viewpoint to the situation.

The Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland, are both, obviously, within the jurisdiction of the IRFU.
The tricolour and the Soldier's Song are representative of the Republic of Ireland as a whole and are not in the least bit contentious. The Ulster Banner and God Save the Queen are not representative of the 'Northern Irish' population (or as you put it - 'the host') and are most certainly contentious.
Leaving the above aside, neither have any official status in Northern Ireland. In other words, 'the host' has no flag or anthem.

My view is clear and simple, if Northern Ireland had it's own distinct flag and anthem, they should be respectively flown and played.

[JohnB]

lamb, again you are applying an insular 'Northern Ireland' viewpoint to the situation.

The Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland, are both, obviously, within the jurisdiction of the IRFU.
The tricolour and the Soldier's Song are representative of the Republic of Ireland as a whole and are not in the least bit contentious. The Ulster Banner and God Save the Queen are not representative of the 'Northern Irish' population (or as you put it - 'the host') and are most certainly contentious. Leaving that aside, neither have any official status in Northern Ireland.

My view is clear and simple, if Northern Ireland had it's own distinct flag and anthem, they should be respectively flown and played.

For better or worse GSTQ is the anthem of NI. I don't like it but there it is. You can't pick and choose according to your prejudice. Well, I say that, but the IRFU clearly do.

The SS not contentious? All national anthems are contentious and although players from NI don't make anything of it, don't you think they'd like a level playing field when it comes to these old fashioned symbols? By the way, we've more than a few NI supporters fron Donegal who have very real issues with the anthems. OK they're not huge amounts of people, but then there are very few of that type of person left in the RoI.

[The Fly]

For better or worse GSTQ is the anthem of NI. I don't like it but there it is. You can't pick and choose according to your prejudice. Well, I say that, but the IRFU clearly do.

The SS not contentious? All national anthems are contentious and although players from NI don't make anything of it, don't you think they'd like a level playing field when it comes to these old fashioned symbols? By the way, we've more than a few NI supporters fron Donegal who have very real issues with the anthems. OK they're not huge amounts of people, but then there are very few of that type of person left in the RoI.

God Save the Queen is not the anthem of Northern Ireland. It has no official status. The political jurisdiction or 'state' of Northern Ireland has no official flag or anthem.
The IFA may use it to represent the Northern Ireland international football side, but don't confuse that with thinking that it represents Northern Ireland as an entity!

On your second point, (highlighted in bold), the Soldier's Song is not contentious in the Republic of Ireland, which is what I was inferring in my post. Apologies if you didn't understand.

[Scooby Doo]

I'd rather never see an All-Ireland team than give up my national anthem in the place of a P.C. abomination like 'Ireland's Call'. Although i agree with the concept of a one-island team 'Ireland' i feel that we would have to concede too much ground to insular Nordie demands. The Ireland national football team should represent those that are proud to call themselves Irish and not those who would rather be anything but. And just to add, the appropriation of the concept of 'Ulster' by the Unionist population seriously pi$$es me off(granted it has been going on for over a century). Ulster is the historical mecca of Irishness and Celticness. To suggest that it is somehow a symbol or creation of the Unionist psyche is ridiculous. Anyway leave the Nordies to themselves and get behind the true Irish team. I'd prefer to forsake the talents of Pat Mc Court and Jonny Evans if it means not compromising the core ideals of my national team.

[JohnB]

[QUOTE=The Fly;1279927]

God Save the Queen is not the anthem of Northern Ireland. It has no official status. The political jurisdiction or 'state' of Northern Ireland has no official flag or anthem.
The IFA may use it to represent the Northern Ireland international football side, but don't confuse that with thinking that it represents Northern Ireland as an entity!

Ah, that old chestnut. There are many things in the UK that are not in the (very disparate) constitution and therefore not official. By convention, GSTQ is the anthem of NI and also the UK. The IRFU should respect local convention. By the way, I think the decision by the IRFU has little to do with questions about official status; it's closer to your previous post about expecting players from the RoI to stand for GSTQ.

On your second point, (highlighted in bold), the Soldier's Song is not contentious in the Republic of Ireland, which is what I was inferring in my post. Apologies if you didn't understand.

No need to apologise, I got your point. I was merely pointing out that the anthem issue is contentious to some of your fellow countrymen and women. We've quite a few of them posting on OWC.

[JohnB]

Ulster is the historical mecca of Irishness and Celticness.

May I ask what Irishness and Celticness are?

[Scooby Doo]

May I ask what Irishness and Celticness are?

Although it would make a great (and lengthy) discussion, I'd prefer not to get into a major sociological/historical debate at four in the morning . But i believe that the Ulster cycle is the archetypal mainstay of historical Celtic culture that the majority of Irish people today would claim allegience to and identification with. The suggestion that the concept of Ulster is representative of the portion of the population that would describe themselves as being anything but Irish is farcical imo.

[-lamb-]

lamb, again you are applying an insular 'Northern Ireland' viewpoint to the situation.

nonsense. it's plain logic, not insular or biased.
facts are facts, when the ireland rugby team play in dublin the hosts are treated to different protocols than when the ireland rugby team play in belfast. i can't see any particularly valid reason why that should be the case since the rugby team is SUPPOSED to equally represent both the republic of ireland and northern ireland, yet there seems to be conditions put on this equal representation....

.....only when it suits.

[The Fly]

Ah, that old chestnut. There are many things in the UK that are not in the (very disparate) constitution and therefore not official. By convention, GSTQ is the anthem of NI and also the UK. The IRFU should respect local convention. By the way, I think the decision by the IRFU has little to do with questions about official status; it's closer to your previous post about expecting players from the RoI to stand for GSTQ.

Hardly a convention, certainly not nowadays anyway. The fact remains that is not the official anthem of Northern Ireland, nor is it representative of it. I live in Northern Ireland and am very contented that the IRFU do not respect the local 'convention' you speak of. Once again, if NI had it's own official/cross-community anthem that should be played.

No need to apologise, I got your point. I was merely pointing out that the anthem issue is contentious to some of your fellow countrymen and women. We've quite a few of them posting on OWC.

Those posters on OWC, of which I am one, I'd say are simply sensitive to a somewhat delicate situation, like myself. Most may also live in Northern Ireland JohnB. (and be fairly enlightened)
For the record - I have always had much sympathy for players and supporters from Northern Ireland at Irish rugby matches

[The Fly]

nonsense. it's plain logic, not insular or biased.
facts are facts, when the ireland rugby team play in dublin the hosts are treated to different protocols than when the ireland rugby team play in belfast. i can't see any particularly valid reason why that should be the case since the rugby team is SUPPOSED to equally represent both the republic of ireland and northern ireland, yet there seems to be conditions put on this equal representation....

.....only when it suits.

lamb - once again, Northern Ireland or 'the host' has no official anthem or flag, the Republic of Ireland does. Once again - GSTQ has no official status and besides that, is not representative of Northern Ireland as a 'state' or entity. When 'the host'(NI) has an official, cross community anthem, that should and would be played.

[-lamb-]

The suggestion that the concept of Ulster is representative of the portion of the population that would describe themselves as being anything but Irish is farcical imo.

actually a 2008 survey states that 42% or protestants primarily called themselves some form of either northern irish, ulster or irish (57% british), whereas 34% of catholics called themselves primarily northern irish, british or ulster (61% irish). there's a lot of middle ground in there, though i understand your annoyance about using the term "ulster".


ps. to the fly. i agree with you that northern ireland should have it's own anthem (and properly official flag for that matter), but the fact is it doesn't (and highly unlikely to for many years, considering those clowns in stormont). the only one that covers it is right now also happens to cover the rest of the uk, gstq, and the only flag that covers it is the union flag, so by default logic and simple courtesy gstq should have been played and the union flag flown.

[The Fly]

ps. to the fly. i agree with you that northern ireland should have it's own anthem (and properly official flag for that matter), but the fact is it doesn't.

I know it doesn't - I have already stated that many times. We will have to wait until it does. Hopefully sooner rather than later!

the only one that covers it is right now also happens to cover the rest of the uk, gstq, so by default logic and simple courtesy it should have been played.

GSTQ doesn't 'cover it right now.' Please explain to me in what way it does.
The IFA may use it right now and will probably continue to for some time.........but that's it. The only reason it is used to represent the Northern Ireland football side is because the IFA chooses to use it.

[-lamb-]

well, it does, being the national anthem for the uk it also covers northern ireland.