QuoteAs noted in his most recent post, this particular poster has clarified your misunderstanding.Originally Posted by dantheman
An apology for being mis-termed a "hypocrite" would be welcomed by him...
I didn't see/have time to respond to your earlier, lengthy post which, inter alia, referred to me and since then, GR and NB have responded pretty much as I would have done.
However, a few particular points from your follow-up need to be answered, as below.
I am entirely in favour of seeing GSTQ being replaced by something peculiarly "Norn Iron".
And before you start excoriating members of OWC, after exhaustive debate(!), in two separate polls receiving hundreds of votes, a clear 2:1 majority wanted to see GSTQ replaced (fwiw).
Anyhow, despite my own, clear stance on this, I also recognise that it is a hugely divisive and emotive issue, which should not be addressed blithely or insensitively.
The Report commission by the IFA was one move in that direction, but even there, from the extract you quoted, they did NOT appear to say GSTQ must be abolished; rather they suggested a public competition be held to see if there was a more widely acceptable alternative.
I would like to see that pursued, but in the meantime, I would ask all those opposed to GSTQ (like myself), to do what I did when I used to go down to Lansdowne for Ireland rugby internationals and had to suffer the SS (twice!):
"Stand Up. Shut Up. Now get on with the bloody Game"
On which point, in order to be consistent, shouldn't the FAI replace the SS before ROI matches? After all, every ROI fan I've ever heard has insisted that any Irish player, North or South, Protestant or Catholic, Unionist or Republican etc, should (post-Gibson) be eligible to play for their team, without any barrier or discouragement etc.
If GSTQ is "unacceptable" to Northern Nationalists at NI games, surely the SS is "unacceptable" to Northern Unionists at ROI games?
(Btw, I am NOT proposing that the FAI replace the SS at their games, merely making the point to expose the double-standards of our critics)
As the poster in question, I would suggest you go back and read what I actually posted. I did NOT complain about the lack of objectivity on this Board.
Rather, I said I was disinclined to continue posting because of a perceived lack of objectivity of "some of the Mods" (two, actually).
The distinction is key, since only an idiot would join a football fans' website and expect to meet with widespread objectivity.
As for what I posted on OWC, this was a spoof on a song composed by Scottish fans following Maradona's handball vs England, so fans of one team ripping the p ish out of their neighbours is hardly new to football, is it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOO42...om=PL&index=10
That said, I will apologise unreservedly if you can assure me that you and your fellow ROI fans have never engaged in a touch of Schadenfreud on occasion...
On this point, I disagree fundamentally with GR on the topic of "compensation".
For me, representing your country should never be about financial considerations, neither should any hint of a "transfer market" be allowed to develop. In the end, FIFA's Regulations should decide how/when a player may switch Nationality on purely principled grounds, otherwise minor countries like eg Liberia would be tempted to develop the next George Weah for the highest bidder, and he might be tempted to comply, in the knowledge that he would not otherwise be able to play at the highest level for his native country.
Thereafter, the only country which would benefit would be whichever one (Spain? France? Italy? England?) which paid the most "compensation" for a player - wrong, wrong, wrong.
As for Gibson, you can keep him; speaking personally, I wouldn't want your money any more than I would the player himself.
P.S. If compensation were payable in such cases, never mind any present economic difficulties, the ROI would still be struggling to pay the English, Scottish and Welsh FA's compensation for the Jack Charlton era!
Three points about "poaching".
1. I, for one, have no problem with the FAI approaching the likes of Duffy or Wilson, since both have a parent/grandparent from the ROI, so must be perfectly entitled to play for the FAI team, should they choose;
2. However, when it comes to discrimination (true sense of the word, that is), it is the FAI who presently have more of a case to answer than the IFA (imo).
For it is notable that of all the players they have approached, none has ever been from the Unionist community.
Therefore, it is their recruitment policy which is leading to a de facto politicisation, even sectarianising, of football in Ireland, not that of the IFA who, after all, are only objecting to losing Nationalist kids whom they might select alongside their Unionist neighbours;
3. As to the extent of FAI poaching, if you read some more of OWC, you'd see one account by a poster of an incident a couple of years back. Basically, an Australian schoolboy team (U-16) was touring the UK and arranged a game against an NI Schoolboy team along the way.
This was to be played with an afternoon kick-off in midweek in Ballinamallard, when the weather intervened. At the last minute, it was switched to a Council pitch in Irvinestown, where it was played in the pouring rain.
By kick-off I would be surprised if there were more than a copule of dozen in attendance, when an ROI-registered car pulled up and out got two known FAI scouts, ROI tracksuits and all.
They weren't there to take notes on the Aussies, that's for sure...
Speaking for myself, my attitude towards the FAI and their team (not their fans, I might add) has been greatly hardened by the Gibson case, since it is more than just a case of "disagreement".
What those in the FAI fail to acknowledge is that it is they who unilaterally broke the Gentleman's Agreement between the two Associations not to pick each others' players, an Agreement negotiated nearly 60 years ago, at the behest of the FAI.
Therefore, if they are now entitled to pick the likes of Gibson, what has changed from two or three decades ago, when they would have declined to pick Gibson's father or grandfather?
And then they have the brass neck to bitch about "fair play" over the Henry Handball...
Who do you think it is employs/subsidises/administers/encourages all those coaches/players etc in doing their good work, if not the IFA (and its decision-makers)?
Despite being perenially skint, the IFA devotes a lot of scarce resources to FFA, such that people like Brian Kerr, when he was involved with SARI, has stated that the FAI could learn a lot from what the IFA is doing in this field.
P.S. If the IFA is "nearly there" (anthem aside), how do you reconcile that with your earlier description of them as being "orange-tinted"?
Which comment betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what FFA is all about.
For it is not a case of balancing eg Nationalist numbers versus those of Loyalists.
Rather, it is a case of ensuring as many people who wish to do so, may do so in an atmosphere free of anything on the grounds of religion/politics/race/disability etc which might deter them.
On which point, had you recently (ever?) actually attended an NI game, you would know that that is now almost universally the case. (For independent verification of this, see eg Gspain's accounts drawn from his own personal experience).
Anyhow, fans may maintain whatever political views they like away from the stadium, so long as they don't bring them through the turnstiles.
As such, I can assure you we have been enormously successful in recent years, and if it is still a "work in progress", the good work goes on.
In the meantime, we can also go on enjoying the good work on the pitch; I would sincerely invite you to come along and see this for yourself (tickets permitting), but if you cannot bring yourself to do so, then I suspect it is more your loss than ours.
As noted in his most recent post, this particular poster has clarified your misunderstanding.
An apology for being mis-termed a "hypocrite" would be welcomed by him...
No, trust me, they use the same words.NI and England use the same anthem (except the NI fans sing two more words than the English).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swZ82iUiAEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrAl2IBuPA
Last edited by Not Brazil; 09/12/2009 at 7:04 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Not true. The changes which have recently been seen have been the result of a huge amount of work by many bodies/agencies, most notably the fans, but also including the IFA.
Or don't you consider that the IFA have NI fans within their ranks, too?
I'm not claiming that the IFA is perfect -far from it. But if it has (more than) its share of backwoodsmen etc, it also has very many good people, who are doing their best in difficult circumstances, not least of which is ill-informed, even prejudiced criticism by people who should know better...
Are you sure?And how can you back up a statement like that without any hard evidence?
They could have been looking at the Aussies as well actually. And I don't see what the issue is. Those lining out for NI at underage level are as much our players as they are yours and our scouts were doing what they are paid to do. Indeed I could easily argue that it is NI that is poaching our players?
Tough luck. It was the IFA that brought the eligibility issue to FIFA. You lost. Get over it.
[QUOTE=ifk101;1291150] Those lining out for NI at underage level are as much our players as they are yours and our scouts were doing what they are paid to do. QUOTE]
There's the money shot, right there, folks.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 09/12/2009 at 7:15 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Exactly - no need for an united team. We can pick who we want. Game over.Those lining out for NI at underage level are as much our players as they are yours and our scouts were doing what they are paid to do.
There's the money shot, right there, folks.
Well, providing they want to play for you.
And some still have the temerity to wish to deny those who don't an International career, and wonder why Northern Ireland fans want nothing to do with a "merger".
You couldn't make it up
It's been, er, revealing.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I'm talking about your claim that "I think history will take its own course and [Not Brazil's] opinions will have SFA to do with it". At best it's just empty cliche, but it also suggests that the will of local people will simply be ignored. Hence my gag about abolishing elections.
One doesn't link automatically to the other. Many NI fans are prepared in principle to try an all-Ireland league; none would accept our national team being abolished.An AIL is a realistic possibility. Once that happens, anything is possible in terms of the national sides
More ill-informed cliche. Have you ever been in or anywhere near it?They can be proud that Windsor Park is slightly less of a sectarian cess pit these days?
Don't be so self-critical, plenty of the other posts were just as much guff as yours.
No, it's to qualify for occasional finals and take it from there. Don't knock beating the eventual champions in qualifying (or any of the other big boys) btw, you'll enjoy it when it eventually happens. Drawing in extra time doesn't count, I'm afraid.
In practice I guess they treat playing us much like they treat playing everyone bar the big five or ten teams (where they'd be expected to lose), or the real minnows (ditto to win, although they managed to lose to Liechtenstein in Euro 2008). Most of the other teams including NI can be beaten on a good day. Latvian TV won't earn a great deal from the TV rights even in their bigger eastern European neighbors. Last time we played in Riga (the largest city in the Baltic states, three times the size of Belfast), the stadium was smaller than Windsor is now.I bet some of the smaller countries such as Lativa are thrilled to play against you - a ramshackle stadium that is falling apart and more importantly, an extremely limited interest in watching it on TV (less cash on the tv rights to develop or sustain their local game). Bet your bottom dollar they would prefer to be playing a country with a decent sized population at least
Save your betting dollar for something you actually have a basic knowledge of, less likely you'll lose it.
Everyone knows the Home Nations' case, and has done since FIFA was founded a century ago. It isn't "obviously an issue" unless you can actually show some evidence of Monaco's wish to join FIFA and upset because they haven't been able to.And fyi, I remember reading that Monaco plays in some football tournament organised for those who are not accepted as members of FIFA - there are quite a few countries involved in it as far as I know, so it is obviously an issue. I'm sure FIFA love explaining to them why the Home Nations are a special case
I'm sure playing in the European Cup/ CL in most of the last 20 seasons is some small consolation to Giggs.Its not about developing his career - its about measuring himself up against those on the world stage. Its the one thing that is missing from Ryan Giggs cv which I think is a pity that he never played in a major tournament
For the 75th or whatever time, because NI fans are 100% opposed to it.And for the billionth time, it works in other sports, so why not football ?
I call it one point gained against a higher ranked team away from home. But using your analogy, didn't the Republic also throw away wins in six of your 10 qualifiers?
I think it's irrelevant to that argument. We're ignoring team UK (if you mean specifically in the 2012 Olympics) and continuing to support NI.This does not do your argument against a Team UK any favours, the fact that you choose to use the UK anthem as your own?
OK, I-like NB and many other NI fans are arguing for it, if you prefer. But to repeat more or less what he said- we're not doing that primarily as a PR stunt to inspire you. I'll continue to defend the IFA and Amalg when they're unfairly criticised; sometimes I criticise them in turn.Well hoping something will change doesn't really inspire any one with confidence!! You can't really give off when people rightly criticise the IFA or the Amalgamation
Fine, you do that.I can find much worse very quickly
The garbage I mentioned couldn't in any reasonable sense be dignified as debate. Moronic, sectarian, often defamatory. Entirely justified to delete it.A decision you made, but not engaging in debate is hardly a mature way to go
Not by me. Although you're over-reacting again. Being kicked off web boards isn't the end of the World.They dont last long, but genuine posters are also talked down or removed
We do have that debate; as NB has described, FFA goes from strength to strength.If you can't have a reasonable debate on issued like this on your main fans forum then there is little hope for FFA
And that answers or is relevant to anything I said how exactly? It would be received in the same way as going into Tallaght wearing a Bohs shirt for a Rovers fgame against a third team. That is, probably as evidence of either provocation or stupidity. Bizarre analogy.I take your point in theory, but that is hardly the practise on the ground. Going into Windsor Park with an Ireland T-Shirt would not be well received
Actually they don't, a football fan in NI can support whoever s/he likes. If you're going to imply NI aren't a 'proper' team, at least be prepared to defend your obvious bias rather than hiding behind the irrelevance of what's in the GFA.Only NI and the ROI directly apply to people born in NI (as per the GFA)
I understand your point quite well. They're in different countries, there's a border between them. They're as foreign to each other as Amsterdam and Brussels, however many Belgians live in Holland or vice-versa.It is simply not true that say Donegal is foreign from Belfast. I don't see why you can't understand this
Meet me halfway, Dan. It's perfectly possible to support the (effectively all-Ireland) RoI side without wanting the NI side to be abolished. There's no inherent reason why most or all of the RoI fans in NI couldn't support NI too, but if they don't want to that's fine. It obviously needs stressing: you've already got an effective all-Ireland side.No but if you support NI because it currently exists but would prefer an All-Ireland team then are you not a true NI fan. This hardly gives rise to producing a fan base representative of the wider NI community
I read and understood perfectly well what you said. Some Welsh and Scots booed GSTQ. Big deal, comedy villainy as I said. They weren't 'bemused', they were just routinely booing . Some Slovenes, Poles and Germans at the last U-21 I went to booed as well, it happens at international football. It isn't a big deal for us, if it puts you in a bad place I'm sorry, but you're getting wound up by trivia.No need to spell anything out as you didn't read what I said!...I said that the playing of GSTQ at their grounds was not received well. I can understand their bemusement of course, as they sensibly have anthems of their own. As does every team in the world except for two, England and NI. Of these two, only NI's is contentious. This is hardly a good place to be in
Scottish and Welsh fans have, in recent months, joined those of NI in opposing the plans for a Team GB at the Olympics. There's far more agreement on that than an isue about their upset at having to spend 90 seconds listening to our anthem.
Look, are you genuinely upset about this? If so, turn off the sound on your TV until the anthems finish, have a cigarette or a coffee or something? it really ain't that important.Sweet Jesus. He who shouts loudest is not necessarily right
Yes, so what? No-one's denying their identity. Booing other teams anthems doesn't strengthen it, it's just what drunks and kids do at matches.As regards polls, this is misleading. The vote for independence does not translate into national identity, as you well know is the same in NI. Most Scots/Welsh identify themselves as Scottish/Welsh first
I have no brief for the absurd long-term deal with Linfield, but there are other factors helping to explain it. Like Linfield having the biggest ground, most obviously.As Linfield was an anti-Catholic club I suggest that it actually was
They are; my points above don't do anything of the sort.They're not really, as you anthem point above demonstrates. Sadly
We disagree about the details of the Gibson and similar cases, but don't we agree compensation's a non-no? I just want the two FAs to agree not to pick any 18 or over who's already played for the other's senior teams.
Last edited by Gather round; 09/12/2009 at 7:44 PM.
I would introduce myself, but you don't seem the sharpest tack...Aye, but everyone knows that was the ultimate fudge. An agreement to disagree!
But accept the text as written. Though have never met anyone of either side in the North who'd say they were both, 'in the flesh'. Though if they really want to be so confused, more fool them, unless their heritage is of course mixed.
It's odd that someone who professes to be a football fan takes offense at another team's song lyrics, particularly one from another team in such close proximity? Ever been to a game? Maybe you should earmuffs next time yuo go to a game in case you hear any of the big bad opposition's nasy singing.
Last edited by thischarmingman; 09/12/2009 at 7:51 PM.
Alan Kernaghan is presumably from a unionist background. Grew up in Bangor from aged 4.
Do you really believe that the FAI would turn down somebody from a unionist background? Believe me nothing could be further from the truth.
Do any of you go near any other section of the forum?
Your willingness to affirm no to an AI team is quite amusing, If you really want that lollypop fine lads lets just give to them.
For Sporting reasons it makes perfect sense, but you're all so Conservative you couldn't even give it a "wee" go..
Football could really excell as an AI, for all other sports it works and it's been worth it.
Bout time eh? Ffs, couple of hours down the M1, up off yer arses.
An interesting case.
Kernaghan "longed to play for Northern Ireland".
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-14565560.html
He didn't have a choice.
I've no doubt the FAI would pick anyone they could get their hands on.
They, and their supporters, should respect the fact that many Northern Irish born players do not want to play for the FAI team, nor wish to see the IFA team abolished.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
You might well find it "amusing".
For "sporting reasons" it doesn't make sense at all to me, and thousands of other Northern Ireland supporters.
Those from Nothern Ireland who wish to "get up off their arses", go down the M1, and watch an AI team are free to do so. Good luck to them.
It's about time that you accepted, and respected, that Northern Ireland fans will be making a journey closer to home to watch the Northern Ireland team for the foreseeable future.
In return, I'll accept, and respect, the right of others to hold a different team allegiance.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 09/12/2009 at 9:32 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Surely you'd want to live up to your name??
Rather than jumping to
I am merely giving my considered and mature opinion on the main reason why the IFA rejected the FIFA compromise, with indirect reference also from memory to comments from the illustrious Howard Wells at the time. All feelers from the IFA pointed to rejection of the compromise because of the utter belief that they were 100% right and could not conceive of another outcome.I look at it from a Northern Ireland supporter perspective.
Do honestly think that having two Irish International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would strengthen the autonomy of either Association?
This stubbornness overwhelmingly blinded the IFA, even long after FIFA spelled it out. They did not even realise that they won their argument, that FIFA should implement the FIFA rules as they were.
It was greatly feared amongst OWC fans that FIFA allowing the FAI free reign would have an overly negative effect on the pool of players available to the IFA. This has not materialised just as I and many others predicted. But I have no idea what would have come to pass should the IFA have been allowed to select Southerners, but hardly armageddon.
The NI team and supporter base looks very solid to me. They have a strong identity, albeit an overly "stand up for the Ulstermen" identity.
Last edited by geysir; 09/12/2009 at 10:05 PM.
geysir,
I'll be absolutely honest with you - some within the hierarchy of the IFA are still in denial. Some (very) senior officials are saying things like "all we want is for FIFA to implement their own rules".
They have implemented their own rules ffs!
Others have "caught on".
Personally, I've moved on.
You deal with the hand you're dealt.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Er, 2009-1994=15!!! Do the Maths!
Walker, was only suggesting an AI would have greater 'Potential', even if the whole of N.E.Ulster had taken the 'NB Amendment'!!
How do we know;no-one's tried in 36 years(for a friendly) or for 85 years for a competitive one?? It could at least be tried in a charity context, eg. Britain v.Ireland?
If it's that painful, maybe Wembley or Croke could divide itself into 5 seperate sectors for the occasion??
Hmm. Smacks of massive double standards. Micky-taking I can take, but if we brought out merchandise mocking them or the Brits in the colloquial terms we might use, we'd be rightly criticised, but the terms 'Taigs' & 'beggars' are common-place on that MB. And only condemned by the silent minority, indirectly.
Lest they get banned for questioning the 'official line'.
Although am happy to indulge in such 'banter', if it didn't result in such a 'knee-jerk reaction', as in anyone who even questions the existence of the North's team is prohibited. No wonder many nationalists see a failure by the mainstream of that fanbase, though not all, to engage with them.
Maybe there is, but it hasn't resulted in thousands of deaths in a long-standing historical and political-related conflict which has ultimately condoned plenty of illegality, on both sides, not least the creation of 'northern' Ireland.
You can't forget all this at a stroke, but the views of certain 'Nord Iron' fans makes dinosaurs and the politicians who represent them look almost progressive. Though not all.
Have been to their NISC two years ago, whilst the cricket was on. Ironically the 'regulars' were very welcoming and wished the
Hmm. More contradictory 'evidence'. Criticism or the opposition view is somehow inherently bad, whilst the laudable FfA camapign is negated by some of the bigoted views above!
And there's no 'effective all-Ireland' side, if all these confused people who are 'Irish' or perhaps not,won't or can't play for them. Though I would laugh if a unionist 'careerist' player went off to play for England, Ireland or even Scotland, as they had a better chance of reaching major Finals....
Many thousands of Ireland supporters already "get up off their arses" from the North to follow Ireland, just as they do in Kerry, Galway, limerick etc... It's a bit of a journey, but we are happy to travel to see ireland play.
I suppose it comes down to your definition of what you regard as being a football supporter living in the North. I love the game, and have never been to Windsor park to support Worthington's team. I much prefer travelling to Dublin to follow my national side.
I'm not sure that a hard core support of around 7,000 n.i supporters should represent the thoughts of the supporters & players of football in the North.
They are a tiny fraction of the football community here and for a many of us we are happy to support Trap's Ireland. I travelled down to the France play-off game with 2 players who play IFA senior football & another few lads from the unionist community who have been travelling with us for many,many years, home and away.
It's wrong that the IFA president, who is a senior member of the Orange Order, and others who have similar unionist affiliations within the IFA organisation, should be the spokemen for what i want in the future.
The IFA always has been and still is an organisation dominated by Unionists.
For many football fans in the North the IFA have had little imput on my footballing allegiences in the past & it will have a similar imput in the future.
I don't differenciate between Gibson from Derry, keane from Dublin, Wilson from Antrim or O'Shea from Waterford
Whatever background/ or community Kernaghan comes from is really irrelevant but it does go to show that the FAI will pick anyone with a heartbeat and a pair of football boots regardless of their background.
Yes 100% correct - the FAI will even pick and play players with absolutely no connection to Ireland.
I don't think the FAI are actively interested in a merger and, with regards to their supporters, there are plenty of us that do not want a merger (myself included). Those calling for a merger need to realise that the eligibility rules are such that from a purely sporting perspective there is absolutely no need for a merger. Calls for a merger are therefore not motivated by sporting considerations.
A high profile player available for selection for us doesn't want to play for Ireland for his reasons - and that's something we need to accept, respect and move on. Similarily there is a community in NI that doesn't want anything to do with us and wants to continue to support the team that represents their identity and interests - that's something we need to accept, respect and move on.
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