Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[Not Brazil]

Considering that part of the compromise over which the IFA have little or no control is already in practice, what autonomy have the IFA lost?

Considering now, the other other part of the compromise that is not in practice, namely that the IFA would be able select any Irish national, a part that the IFA would have total control of, what autonomy do you think the IFA would have lost?

1. None - I believe it has strengthened it.

2. I have detailed this earlier - I believe that having two International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would have weakened the IFA's ability (and, indeed, that of the FAI) to remain autonomous.

[dantheman]

First of all GR, as stated I have no hatred of the NI team and was disappointed this year that they threw away the lead in Poland and then balls-ed up against Slovakia. I do not wish to see it abolished either.

Some will, some won't. I'm reasonably content with the existing flag, although I'd prefer no crown on it as I'm not a royalist. I'd prefer a distinct anthem not shared with England, Britain as a whole or Liechtenstein.

The last time England and NI played, just the one anthem was used. Which is a bit strange for a competitive international fixture, no?
I agree that many people share your views. I don't actually think that the NI flag (not the Union Jack as the UK isn't playing) is anything to do with the IFA and all criticism here is unjustified. Leadership is required from Stormont, including nationalist politicians.
But as regards the anthem, I have to ask you honestly where is the leadership on this issue from either the Amalgamation of NISC or the IFA? As stated the IFA commissioned a report on this issue, and the recommendation was to change the anthem and they IGNORED it.
So one would be forgiven for concluding that there is no real will to do anything about it. No?

Again some think that, many don't. There are plenty of alternatives- nonn-partisan folk instrumental, pop tune, new composition by Coulter or whoever. It may change in future.

It MAY change? When would it change? You have no idea because it is not being genuinely considered. The could implement Danny Boy tomorrow were there a real desire, and work on something better in the short term.

Of course there is some hatred towards the Republic and local nationalists in NI. Sometimes inevitably this will be demonstrated at football matches or on the web. But a ****-take version of the Hokey cokey's hardly blatant hatred, any more than other fans enjoying others' defeats. Bit exaggerated, don't ye think?

That was some of the milder stuff that has been posted. It was chosen as an example because one of the posters on this forum was complaining about lack of objectivity on this forum yet was posting stuff like this.
As regards lack of objectivity, by you own admission, you have deleted topics on your forum about this very issue. Is that not taking lack of objectivity to a bit of an extreme?

Good man. As you've seen, the genuinely Irish NI fans ain't interested. So it won't happen.

This makes no sense. You are only a proper Irish NI fan if you wish to have nothing to do with other Irish football fans?

Take that chip off your shoulder, Dan. Northern Ireland is an equally proper international team, regularly beats stronger countries and too occasionally challenges to qualify. But as a generally third-ranked/ mediocre achieving squad, it's actually quite similar to the South.

No chip on my shoulder, I am not stating that the NI team is not established with a history at this point. By proper international team I meant one with which players from my community can associate. That is up to the supporters/IFA to sort out.

One doesn't need to view with blinkers, or go off on a tangent about an Act of Parliament from 60 years ago.

60 years ago or not, that Act is still applicable in the UK. Acts have to applied at some stage, and it is still in force. People from the ROI are not foreign in the UK, inculding NI.

Many posters on this thread are saying the NI team should be abolished, even if they use the euphemism 'merged'. NI fans- 100% of them, self-evidently by definition- don't want this to happen. It's quite simple.

Well that I agree on and makes perfect sense. Could you provide some clarification to someone from NI what exactly meets the description of a proper "NI fan"?

I'd welcome anyone in NI or out who wants to support the team. Similarly those who, even without supporting it and/ or preferring another, will at least tolerate it as they would any other.

There are mixed views on this. There are people in the nationalist community who actively want to see the NI team beat in every match. This is not a very intelligent way of creating a consensus or arguing the case for a unified team.

It's only the RoI fans who constantly have a go at NI that bother me, and who I feel the need the answer on threads like this one.

That is not true. The last time I heard your fellow UK fans from Wales and Scotland thought little of the anthem/trappings of your team either. It was booed in both Cardiff and Glasgow.
With respect, do you not think it is a little strange that the two places where your (UK) anthem has received the worst reception are in fact in the UK itself?

I'm glad the hostility is receding, this is a positive step. As a further anecdotal example, I go to NI matches regularly with two Roman Catholics. I know others. Not sure about the proportion of the support from nationalist backgrounds, but as above if they prefer to support other teams that's fine.

I hope your two friends enjoy supporting NI. I have two who do likewise.

Come on, it doesn't demonstrate anything of the sort- everyone knows the NI side has- as well as an admittedly minority nationalist support- plenty of players, coaches etc. from nationalist backgrounds.

Players/coaches yes, fans yes. IFA no. See the sweet heart deal with Linfield and the attitude taken to Belfast Celtic/Derry. It has covered ground from its darkest days, but still has some ground to go.

I felt we- NI, IFA, fans- handled the Gibson case badly. He wanted to play for the South's youth teams, made the choice early, has progressed and good luck to the guy. I'd be more iriated if someone like Shane Duffy, who's already played regularly for our u-19 and u-21, then went off to play for the South. To prevent that, I want the IFA to seek a deal with the FAI that any adult player- over 18- who turns out for one of those teams, qualifier or friendly, is thus thereafter.

Something arrangement needs to be made about future switches, as they will certainly happen.
Ii is not right that the IFA train a player and then he declares for the FAI without either compensation from the FAI to the IFA, or the FAI taking over the training of the player at an earlier age (ie getting directly involved with schools/clubs in NI).

But I have to take issue with the term 'poaching' that is constantly applied to NI players declaring for the ROI. You would swear reading the OWC website that Delaney was travelling up at night and abducting the likes of Gibson/Duffy/Wilson/Ger Crossley from their beds! The players have enough intelligence to make up their own minds as to which path to choose. I don't think you need to be reminded of the reasons for this.
I also concede that a lot of NI fans disagreed over the Darren Gibson case. I think it is settled now, and rightly so. It is time for the FAI to step up the plate and make sure that the IFA is sorted out adequately.

I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United.

As someone born just up the road from me, I wish Johnny Evans the best of luck playing for Man Utd and NI.

"Football For All" is about exactly what it says on the tin - people from Northern Ireland (whether they be nationalist, unionist, neither, male, female, young, old, disabled, from whatever ethnic or religious background etc, etc, etc) enjoying the game of football.

A lot of good work has been done by coaches/players divorced from the decision making process of teh IFA. They just get that anthems issue sorted out and it'll be nearly there.

They have to decide, "Do we wish to bring more nationalist fans in at the expense of losing a few Loyalist knuckle draggers?" I hope they make the right decision.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, but we're comfortable enough with our support's religious, cultural & ethnic mix, not to set up a body called 'Football For All'....

As for being 'Irish', people only react to what they see as anti-Irish, much it emanating from certain persons in N.E.Ulster, which could be more more prevalent on an, er, Irish MB!
Nothing to do with Myopia, but knowing better!

[dantheman]

2. I have detailed this earlier - I believe that having two International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would have weakened the IFA's ability (and, indeed, that of the FAI) to remain autonomous.

This is certainly true, if the IFA had done this they may as well have basted themselves, stuck a holly in their ass and jumped in the oven!

[geysir]

1. None - I believe it has strengthened it.

2. I have detailed this earlier - I believe that having two International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would have weakened the IFA's ability (and, indeed, that of the FAI) to remain autonomous.

That defies rational scrutiny. The part you have no control over strengthens autonomy the part that you would have total control over weakens IFA autonomy
But I can perceive some logic if I attempt to look at it from from an exclusively political Unionist perspective.

[Not Brazil]

Yeah, but we're comfortable enough with our support's religious, cultural & ethnic mix, not to set up a body called 'Football For All'....

That's interesting.

Maybe you should tell the FAI.

http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...=13&Itemid=276

They have a first class relationship with the FFA folk at the IFA.

Unfortunately, whilst we share things like disabilities and ethnic minorities with the good folk of the Irish Republic, we have a problem with divided religious and cultural issues - you may have noticed, over the years.

[Not Brazil]

That defies rational scrutiny. The part you have no control over strengthens autonomy the part that you would have total control over weakens IFA autonomy
But I can perceive some logic if I attempt to look at it from from an exclusively political Unionist perspective.

I look at it from a Northern Ireland supporter perspective.

Do honestly think that having two Irish International teams, picking from the same pool of players throughout the 32 Counties, creating de facto Ireland "A" and "B" sides, would strengthen the autonomy of either Association?

[gspain]

It has when you keep rambling on about 'denial of choice'.


So what is it about then?

Bully for you also. Seems from their main 'public' interface and that quote above, you have a long way to go in re-educating some of your fellow fans.....
If you feel so inclined, good luck.

I really wanted to stay out of this one.

However taking delight and making fuin of a rival's defeat does not negate the excellent work done in Football for All.

I daresay even one or two Irish fans might take delight at an England defeat. Indeed there is a song that has been sung in pubs across Europe and elsewhere to the tune of Harry Belefonte's banana boat song celebrating another famous handball goal in the World Cup. I don't think we'll be singing that one again.

As for the arguments in favour of a single International football team on this island it is just not going to happen for a whole number of reasons incl political as well as naked self interest. If you are really concerned about giving Johnny Evans the chance to play in a major finals then why not a single UK team or worse still one team for both of these islands. It happens in rugby.

[Not Brazil]

Hold on - you are on foot.ie, where the overwhelming majority of posters are nationalist/republican with a Linfield avitar expressing surpise that the sentiment is one for a unitited Irish team and league?

Pull the other one mate, you know exactly whats happening. You might not like or agree with it, but save the surprise.... Myopic?

No, I'm not surprised - in the slightest.

Not sure what avatars have to do with anything - had you been following, you'd had known that I tentatively support the concept of an AI "Premier" League.

Myopic? Yeah - look it up in the dictionary.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's interesting.

Maybe you should tell the FAI.

http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...=13&Itemid=276

They have a first class relationship with the FFA folk at the IFA.

Unfortunately, whilst we share things like disabilities and ethnic minorities with the good folk of the Irish Republic, we have a issue with divided religious and cultural issues - you may have noticed, over the years.

That's primarily for disabled people which is great.

But not formed out of guilt because a majority of fans were religious & ethnic bigots. Though don't think most of our fans have any special religious issues....

[ArdeeBhoy]

However taking delight and making fuin of a rival's defeat does not negate the excellent work done in Football for All.

It's all about the tone of that mocking though. As in being quite hateful and prevalent throughout that MB. So much so, that much of it can not be read by just 'anyone'.

Still the IFA must be very proud of such fans. And embarassed in contrast to their FfA.

[Not Brazil]

Yes, of the main one, the FAI.

What a stupid question.....

Would it weaken or strengthen the original one - the one you broke away from?

[Not Brazil]

That's primarily for disabled people which is great.

But not formed out of guilt because a majority of fans were religious & ethnic bigots. Though don't think most of our fans have any special religious issues....

Yes, it is great - as is the FAI's and IFA's work with ethnic minorities.

The IFA's FFA programme was not formed out of "guilt", and a "majority" of Northern Ireland fans are not "religious & ethnic" bigots.

[Not Brazil]

It's all about the tone of that mocking though.

Isn't it just.

[Not Brazil]

Weaken of course.

What a stupid question.....

geysir will be in shortly to challenge you on your answer to my "stupid question".

According to him, your answer defies "rational scrutiny", and he'll think you have an "exclusively political Unionist perspective".



Oh, by the way, in case you didn't know, Northern Ireland fans want nothing to do with anything that weakens the autonomy of the IFA.

Just thought I'd clear that up for you.

[Gather round]

Not only is there no grasp of geography, but the Brits.not teach education in N.E. Ulster? It's two finals in 15 years;1994 & 2002

They obviously didn't teach you basic arithmetic. Else you'd realise that the 1994 World Cup was more than 15 years ago.

But where does Walker in his article 'deny' choice?

The lazy ****-stirrer suggests the NI team be abolished. Which would obviously, er deny choice to fans who want to support it.

Yeah, but we're comfortable enough with our support's religious, cultural & ethnic mix, not to set up a body called 'Football For All'....

You (personally and with many others on this thread) clearly aren't in favor of football for all. If you were, you wouldn't be suggesting abolishing the NI team.

Hold on - you are on foot.ie, where the overwhelming majority of posters are nationalist/republican with a Linfield avitar expressing surpise that the sentiment is one for a unitited Irish team and league?

Whoa, Mr Acronym. While the overwhelming majority on foot.ie obviously support the Republic of Ireland as you'd expect, the same can't be said for united Irish leagues, let alone national teams. Many posters on the thread have pointed out that, variously

a) adding a few teams from Northern Ireland wouldn't necessarily improve standards in the League of Ireland

b) an all-Ireland team able to select from the population throughout Ireland and beyond wouldn't necessarily do any better than the existing all-Ireland team able to, er select from the population throughout Ireland and beyond

c) there's nothing in either suggestion for NI fans or those of most IL clubs.

[Not Brazil]

Of course, but like lots of things going on in your part of the world, I think history will take its own course and your opinions will have SFA to do with it.

I am more than happy to let history take it's course.

The thing about history taking it's course though, there are always people behind the wheel taking it there.

[Not Brazil]

As for c, I accept the 10,000 odd paying punters of the NI side would lose out.

Funnily enough, we have no desire whatsoever to "lose out".

Mixed vibes from IL Clubs on the AIL thingy - Setanta Cup dying it's slow death (will there be one next year??) is a set back in that regard.

[Gather round]

I have no hatred of the NI team and was disappointed this year that they threw away the lead in Poland and then balls-ed up against Slovakia. I do not wish to see it abolished either

Good man. I was in Chorzow and thought it a fair result, we hardly threw away a win.

The last time England and NI played, just the one anthem was used. Which is a bit strange for a competitive international fixture, no?

Aye, like I said it's used by three UEFA members- NI, Liechtenstein and England.

So one would be forgiven for concluding that there is no real will to do anything about it. No?

Yes, there's a will- shared by me personally. No, it isn't a majority will or a high-priority issue at present. I hope that will change.

That was some of the milder stuff that has been posted. It was chosen as an example because one of the posters on this forum was complaining about lack of objectivity on this forum yet was posting stuff like this

Come on, either it's mild- little more than banter really- or you could have posted something that really was blatantly hateful. You can find that easily on most web boards, including this one.

As regards lack of objectivity, by you own admission, you have deleted topics on your forum about this very issue. Is that not taking lack of objectivity to a bit of an extreme?

You could argue whether it was objective or subjective, but when I was a moderator and Ardee Bhoy and co. turned up with their nonsense about planter paranoia, unionists not being really Irish and the like, I had a pretty easy decision. it was moronic and sectarian, so it got zapped.

This makes no sense. You are only a proper Irish NI fan if you wish to have nothing to do with other Irish football fans?

No, read it again more carefully. I said NI fans were genuinely Irish and don't want their genuinely Irish NI team to be abolished. Can't see where you get wanting nothing to do with other Irish football fans from that?

By proper international team I meant one with which players from my community can associate

An odd definition. Aren't the other 200-odd countries in FIFA not proper international teams then?

60 years ago or not, that Act is still applicable in the UK. Acts have to applied at some stage, and it is still in force. People from the ROI are not foreign in the UK

Look, there's still a current act on the Brit statute book that says shagging the heir to the throne's missus is treason punishable by death. Doesn't mean it's relevant to whether the NI team should be abolsihed. Pretty much everyone would agree that Britain and the Republic of Ireland are two separate countries, so each is foreign to the other. Maybe not as foreign as San Marino or Andorra, but still foreign.

Could you provide some clarification to someone from NI what exactly meets the description of a proper "NI fan"?

Ha ha. To be a NI fan you need merely support NI. If you think the team should be abolished, as many on this thread do, then pretty obviously you ain't a NI fan.

There are mixed views on this. There are people in the nationalist community who actively want to see the NI team beat in every match. This is not a very intelligent way of creating a consensus or arguing the case for a unified team

I won't comment on such people's intelligence. It's more likely that they don't actually want a unified team by consensus, is it not?

That is not true. The last time I heard your fellow UK fans from Wales and Scotland thought little of the anthem/trappings of your team either. It was booed in both Cardiff and Glasgow

Dan, I think you'll find there's a pretty fundamental reason why Welsh and Scottish fans wouldn't be too keen on NI no longer having a separate international side within Britain. Do I need to spell it out for you?

Aye, their fans barracked God Save the Queen, so we just sang it all the louder. It's just pantomime villainy anyway- only a minority in both Wales and Scotland in every election and poll want independence. In practice GSTQ isn't that big a problem for them either when they play NI or generally.

See the sweet heart deal with Linfield and the attitude taken to Belfast Celtic/Derry

The Linfield deal although probably distorting of competition within the Irish League, isn't really evidence of anti-nationalist bias, is it? The disgraceful treatment of Belfast Celtic and Derry City was decades, even generations ago. Let's move on.

It is time for the FAI to step up the plate and make sure that the IFA is sorted out adequately

I've suggested how, No need for any money to directly change hands, just stop picking players who've already played adult international football elsewhere.

They have to decide, "Do we wish to bring more nationalist fans in at the expense of losing a few Loyalist knuckle draggers?"

They're already doing both. I take your broad point.

[Gather round]

Of course, but like lots of things going on in your part of the world, I think history will take its own course and your opinions will have SFA to do with it

Big talk, Comrade BYC. How will you achieve that, by abolishing elections and sending in some tanks to close Windsor Park?

If you put a or b to the foot.ie public as a poll, 99% would say 'why not'?

Put it to a poll then- just ask Gustavo or one of the other mods and they'll set one up for you.