Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[The Fly]

That's fine - you still haven't answered the question as to what in the FIFA Statutes was different, that would have precluded a player born in Northern Ireland, obtaining Citizenship of the Irish Republic, and declaring for the Republic Of Ireland International team, pre GFA.

Nothing, as you know my good man.

Geysir, the only thing that precluded a player born in Northern Ireland from declaring for the Republic of Ireland pre GFA, was the 'Gentleman's Agreement' that existed between the two associations.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't post here much. I am a northern nationalist who supports the Republic, and do so for a number of reasons. All my family are from Wicklow or Kerry and I am living & working in Dublin, and intend to remain. I consider NI to be my 2nd team (I also would cheer for Scotland), and would like to have seen both teams qualify for the world cup. NI were my joint favorite team (ie I had no preference) until November 1993, but that's another (well-documented) story.

I think anyone who is trying to change minds of unionist minded "NI fans" are wasting their time. I mean this as distinct from "football fans from Northern Ireland", a much larger group including myself.
Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault) that alienates people like myself from supporting NI. I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do? ha ha ha etc" but there is no real desire on the ground for any action in this regard.

There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty up there (and as such I find his early statement here that he was not posting here "Due to personal reservations about the lack of objectivity" to be somewhat hypocritical):

"You put your left hand in,
You put your left hand out
In, Out, In, Out,
Shake it all about,
You hand the ball to Gallas,
Who gives it a clout,
And that put the Beggars Out!

Oh Terry Terry Henry
Oh Willy Willy Gallas
Oh Dopey Swedish Linesman
Oh they put the Beggars Out, Out, Out!"

Charming. Despite this prevailing attitude there is a silent minority who avoid the politics and for them as such I give some support for the team, in the same sense that NI's leading goalscorer went to school in the same town as me. Many coaches work tirelessly for the IFA coaching kids in rough areas of Belfast and other Northern towns/cities, and great credit must be given to them for the time and effort spent.

As regards bringing the two associations together again, I do not think this should happen in the near future. It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really. With the Darren Gibson case being rightly resolved in favour of the FAI, northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team.

The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers ie that for example Derry and Donegal are foreign from each other. This in untrue, as an act pass by their (UK) parliament testifies:
http://www.wiki.ie/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

Indeed with a similar blinkered approach, you can understand the FAI poaching argument. Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that. In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)

The IFA launched a football for all campaign during the last few years which has addressed some of the minor, but sadly few of the major, issues regarding the perception of the international team throughout Northern Ireland.
With this in mind, their actions regarding the Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career. They need to either:

-Drop the Darren Gibson case and opposition to northern nationalists play for the Republic and they can quitely shelve the pretence of Football For All. I think they will end up doing this.

or

-Embrace the anthems issue once and for all, and implement the recommendations of the report that they commissioned (Sunday football has since been permitted) and face down the predictable Unionist opposition to this.

The best post to date on the topic.

The Hypocrisy is depressing but predictable. If only if it because it makes a mockery of the IFA's laudable aims to embrace their wider populace.

Unsurprisingly I guess (& certainly not on here) the silent minority of fans of the North of which you speak and especially those involved directly in coaching, who have neither the time or resources to show such overt levels of prejudice, must feel so frustrated about such raw hatred.
The fellow who designed the 'alternative' Ulster flag on that other forum, who I know of via a mutual acquaintance, was ridiculed for advocating change, but that's what he & that minority are up against.

One small crumb of comfort though, from the marginally younger generation from someone who should support the North (he played for them in schoolboy trials), was a sincere message of consolation re. recent events....
If the same ever happened to 'his' lot, it's one person to whom it'd be reciprocated.

[Not Brazil]

The Hypocrisy is depressing but predictable.

The real issue of hypocrisy centres on those who lauded the right of choice (with which I agree) who now seek to deny choice.

[janeymac]

=Gather round;1290494

Less than 3 million, I believe. Do you mean Slovakia?

Yes - but you get the gist that there is a critical mass and after that is reached it doesn't make too much difference.

Make your mind up. Either we're not England as well (and thus seen to be neutral, like you), or we're reliant on English support to be noticed. We can hardly be both at the same time.

No, the IFA are between a rock and a hard place. Within FIFA/EUFA, the IFA are stuck hanging onto the coat tails of England (within the Home Nations). In the meantime every other country will be doing their best to put one over on England/Home Nations. You are probably also resented by most other nations because that effectively one country, the UK has four teams & somewhere like the Peoples' Republic of China with a population of 1.2 bn (with 48 different nationalities within its borders) with potential for real potential, has one Association, not to mention a country like Monaco cannot get FIFA/EUFA recognition.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The real issue of hypocrisy centres on those who lauded the right of choice (with which I agree) who now seek to deny choice.

Except that the likes of Michael Walker have never made any comments about choice. Purely about improving the pool of potential players and thus the strength of any notional team, as has happened in numerous other sports. Which are happy enough to call themselves Ireland!!!

And we know you don't want it, but we can at least query other discrepancies raised by 'dtm' amongst others, about certain other 'ethics' highlighted.
Which aren't necessarily to deny 'choice', though you wouldn't think it from the level of paranoia on here or elsewhere, everytime someone suggests a UI team.

[janeymac]

The real issue of hypocrisy centres on those who lauded the right of choice (with which I agree) who now seek to deny choice.

The whole Gibson episode has been very educational really - when you actually see how the NI fans resist even minor change (ie., flags & anthem) the best solution has been reached.

I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United.

[Not Brazil]

I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United.

No need to feel sorry for Mr Evans - he's as proud as punch to play for Northern Ireland, as will his kid brother be in the near future.

[Not Brazil]

Except that the likes of Michael Walker have never made any comments about choice. Purely about improving the pool of potential players and thus the strength of any notional team, as has happened in numerous other sports. Which are happy enough to call themselves Ireland!!!

And we know you don't want it, but we can at least query other discrepancies raised by 'dtm' amongst others, about certain other 'ethics' highlighted.
Which aren't necessarily to deny 'choice', though you wouldn't think it from the level of paranoia on here or elsewhere, everytime someone suggests a UI team.

This "improvement" (currently that would be Evans and who else?) in the pool of players would ultimately result in many, many, players from Northern Ireland denied the opportunity to play International football.

As Northern Ireland fans, we accept we are underdogs - with a bite.

Players who wouldn't get near a, singular, Irish team, playing International football, and boxing above their weight. That's a joy.

Being patriotic is not "paranoia".

I have no real affinity with players from the Republic Of Ireland - they don't stir my International football passions.

Discussions like these are intersting on many levels - on a personal level, they serve to confirm why I could only ever support one team in International football - Northern Ireland.

[Gather round]

I think anyone who is trying to change minds of unionist minded "NI fans" are wasting their time. I mean this as distinct from "football fans from Northern Ireland", a much larger group including myself

Aye, I think anyone trying to persuade NI fans that the NI team should be abolished is wasting their time. I doubt the second group you mention is much larger (ie much more than 50% of the football-supporting population in NI), but if you've got some actual evidence to back your claim, let's see it?

Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault)

Some will, some won't. I'm reasonably content with the existing flag, although I'd prefer no crown on it as I'm not a royalist. I'd prefer a distinct anthem not shared with England, Britain as a whole or Liechtenstein.

I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do?"

Again some think that, many don't. There are plenty of alternatives- nonn-partisan folk instrumental, pop tune, new composition by Coulter or whoever. It may change in future.

There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty up there

Of course there is some hatred towards the Republic and local nationalists in NI. Sometimes inevitably this will be demonstrated at football matches or on the web. But a ****-take version of the Hokey cokey's hardly blatant hatred, any more than other fans enjoying others' defeats. Bit exaggerated, don't ye think?

It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really

Good man. As you've seen, the genuinely Irish NI fans ain't interested. So it won't happen.

northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team

Take that chip off your shoulder, Dan. Northern Ireland is an equally proper international team, regularly beats stronger countries and too occasionally challenges to qualify. But as a generally third-ranked/ mediocre achieving squad, it's actually quite similar to the South.

The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers

One doesn't need to view with blinkers, or go off on a tangent about an Act of Parliament from 60 years ago. Many posters on this thread are saying the NI team should be abolished, even if they use the euphemism 'merged'. NI fans- 100% of them, self-evidently by definition- don't want this to happen. It's quite simple.

Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that

I'd welcome anyone in NI or out who wants to support the team. Similarly those who, even without supporting it and/ or preferring another, will at least tolerate it as they would any other. It's only the RoI fans who constantly have a go at NI that bother me, and who I feel the need the answer on threads like this one.

In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)

I'm glad the hostility is receding, this is a positive step. As a further anecdotal example, I go to NI matches regularly with two Roman Catholics. I know others. Not sure about the proportion of the support from nationalist backgrounds, but as above if they prefer to support other teams that's fine.

Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career

Come on, it doesn't demonstrate anything of the sort- everyone knows the NI side has- as well as an admittedly minority nationalist support- plenty of players, coaches etc. from nationalist backgrounds.

I felt we- NI, IFA, fans- handled the Gibson case badly. He wanted to play for the South's youth teams, made the choice early, has progressed and good luck to the guy. I'd be more iriated if someone like Shane Duffy, who's already played regularly for our u-19 and u-21, then went off to play for the South. To prevent that, I want the IFA to seek a deal with the FAI that any adult player- over 18- who turns out for one of those teams, qualifier or friendly, is thus thereafter.

I have already explained numerous times the meaning in my posts, mostly I might add, for your benefit alone. Other posters seem to be able to grasp them quite easily

Sorry Fly, you haven't. You've repeated how dense I am, without much reference to anything I've said here let alone any detailed explanation. You raised, for example, the d'Hondt system and Edmund Burke's theories on the slowness of political change. I don't actually disagree with much of your analysis of them; they're just irrelevant to an argument about why the NI team should be abolished. It just looks like shoehorning in a slew of random facts, just for the sake of it.

I'm actually quite flattered at your obsessive interest in where I live and how often I post. As I'm sure most others on the thread realise, they're largely irrelevant. If you diasagree with what I say, just reply to it. To correct a few points- I've been reading and contributing to OWC since it started (as a mailing list) in 1999 I think. Similarly, on foot.ie since September 2003. I've used various names- including my real name originally- changing for various reasons including OWC regularly needing re-registration as it moved to larger servers, and a ban from foot.ie when a row about Luis Aragones and racism at Spanish international games got out of hand. OWC doesn't tend to feature threads about the NI side being abolished; they get deleted (I zapped one or two when I was a moderator myself some time back). Unfortunately, this thread on foot.ie is just the latest in a depressingly predictable series. They all say basically the same thing: 'let's take over the Nordies even though their team's rubbish and the fans a bunch of orange bigots'. I see the mods have renamed this one to reflect its predictability.

Within FIFA/EUFA, the IFA are stuck hanging onto the coat tails of England (within the Home Nations). In the meantime every other country will be doing their best to put one over on England/Home Nations. You are probably also resented by most other nations because that effectively one country, the UK has four teams & somewhere like the Peoples' Republic of China with a population of 1.2 bn (with 48 different nationalities within its borders) with potential for real potential, has one Association, not to mention a country like Monaco cannot get FIFA/EUFA recognition

Sorry Janey, this makes no sense. Other international teams playing NI will do their best to put one over NI. Unless England are in the same group the other teams are unlikely to give them a second thought. I know of no evidence whatever that other countries are that bothered about Britain having four teams, just as there's no real fuss about Denmark having to or somwhere like Andorra (which is basically a duty-free and ski resprt jointly run by France and Spain) appearing in every FIFA/ UEFA competition. Nobody in Spain or China is particularly upset about there being a NI or Wales team- they're much more likely to use it as a justification for getting they're team (if, say, they're a Basque or Galician or one of those 48 nationalities you mentioned). Or they're insistent that autonomous regions aren't allowed to set up their own teams. Nobody- apart from a few stirrers in Ireland- gives a flying fcuk about abolishing any exisiting teams against their fans' wishes. Monaco's club side seems to do well enough in UEFA competitions. Are they really that bothered about not playing the World Cup? I think not.

I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United

Football's a precarious career, but a player good enough to feature regularly in the Champions' League later stages at 21 has a better chance than most. Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.

[geysir]

Yes - I'm curious to know what (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" entailed.

I do thank you for posting the link to the Act - it was informative, to a point.

In context of current discussions, I contend that it is largely irrelevant.

Edit:

I have discovered that (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" was never defined by the Govt of the Irish Republic, pertaining to Part 7 (1) of the 1956 Act - in other words, those from Northern Ireland, post 1956 Citizenship and Nationality Act, didn't have take any "oath of allegiance" in order to be an Irish Citizen.

You have discovered? Well that is absolute isn't it

Do some proper research before coming out with your discovery statement, you just might find that part of the passport application for NI born was a declaration of citizenship.

[Not Brazil]

You have discovered? Well that is absolute isn't it

Do some proper research before coming out with your discovery statement, you just might find that part of the passport application for NI born was a declaration of citizenship.

Oh, I have done "proper research".

The "prescribed manner" was never defined, nor was there "an oath of allegiance", was there geysir?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Of course there is some hatred towards the Republic and local nationalists in NI.

Hardly a shock, but in direct contradiction of the IFA's 'Football For All'.
If they must be Hypocrites, why not come out and admit it?

it's actually quite similar to the South.

Huh? The South seas? Are you aware of Malin Head?

Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.

Not only is there no grasp of geography, but the Brits.not teach education in N.E. Ulster?
It's two finals in 15 years;1994 & 2002, as opposed to None in 23 years and counting.....
Johnny Evans had better win a lot of club medals!!

[Not Brazil]

Hardly a shock, but in direct contradiction of the IFA's 'Football For All'.
If they must be Hypocrites, why not come out and admit it?

Funny enough, I was at a "Football For All" awards Dinner a couple of weeks ago - seems they're doing all right, given the amount of "nationalists" there, who enjoyed the evening.

It was magnificant to see such a diverse gathering of over 300 people involved in the sport in Northern Ireland - and none of the "nationalists" who received awards for their contribution refused their award.

GR made a point about Northern Irish society generally - equally, there are "nationalists" from Northern Ireland who hate the Northern Ireland team, and "unionists".

"Football For All" is about a heck of a lot more than attracting support from the "nationalist" community for the Northern Ireland team - but, hey, you carry on....

[ArdeeBhoy]

Being patriotic is not "paranoia".

It has when you keep rambling on about 'denial of choice'.

Funny enough, I was at a "Football For All" awards Dinner a couple of weeks ago - seems they're doing all right, given the amount of "nationalists" there, who enjoyed the evening.

It was magnificant to see such a diverse gathering of over 300 people involved in the sport in Northern Ireland - and none of the "nationalists" who received awards for their contribution refused their award.


"Football For All" is about a heck of a lot more than attracting support from the "nationalist" community for the Northern Ireland team

So what is it about then?

Bully for you also. Seems from their main 'public' interface and that quote above, you have a long way to go in re-educating some of your fellow fans.....
If you feel so inclined, good luck.

[Not Brazil]

It has when you keep rambling on about 'denial of choice'.

So what is it about then?

Nothing "paranoid" about telling something for what it is - in this case, denial of choice.

"Football For All" is about exactly what it says on the tin - people from Northern Ireland (whether they be nationalist, unionist, neither, male, female, young, old, disabled, from whatever ethnic or religious background etc, etc, etc) enjoying the game of football.

[Not Brazil]

If you feel so inclined, good luck.

I do, and thank you.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But where does Walker in his article 'deny' choice?

And FFA is anti-discrimination. As in the anti-Irish & Ireland sentiments portrayed by some on that MB. Who clearly don't believe themselves to be Irish!

[geysir]

That's fine - you still haven't answered the question as to what in the FIFA Statutes was different, that would have precluded a player born in Northern Ireland, obtaining Citizenship of the Irish Republic, and declaring for the Republic Of Ireland International team, pre GFA.

That is a very confused and irrational question, beyond repair.

With some reasonable guesswork, I think you mean to ask
'what part of the FIFA statutes of ELIG 2008 would have precluded a NI born player from declaring for the FAI in the times pre GFA?
If so
Afaics nothing, I never claimed there was.

I have only claimed that the terms of automatic citizenship equally available to all people on the Island, as was in written in the GFA and accepted into law by was influential in FIFA's position right from the beginning of the time of IFA objections.
I do believe, referring to the few quotes from FIFA legal dept at the time that such was the certainity about the equality of citizenship as was impressed upon the FIFA legal dept that the main article of eligibility did not use the term "territory of the Association" but used the all important term 'permanent nationality not dependent on residence' in article 15. The other articles of eligibility drafted in, referred to "territory of the association". Now the likes of Alex Bruce would not qualify.

Who knows how the FIFA legal department would have approached the IFA objections should the conditions of citizenship for NI born not been automatic, equal and voted upon by the people of Ireland. All I claim is that it was an important factor in drafting into the statutes 'permanent nationality not dependent on residence'.

[geysir]

With two Associations picking from exactly the same pool of players, throughout the 32 Counties, creating, de facto, Ireland "A" and Ireland "B" teams, you think that would have continued long?

Here you are supporting your contention that the IFA rejected the FIFA compromise to protect IFA autonomy.
I have said, if that was the reason then it was mistaken and claimed that the IFA rejected the compromise because they stubbornly believed they were 100% right.

Considering that part of the compromise over which the IFA have little or no control is already in practice, what autonomy have the IFA lost?

Considering now, the other other part of the compromise that is not in practice, namely that the IFA would be able select any Irish national, a part that the IFA would have total control of, what autonomy do you think the IFA would have lost?

[Not Brazil]

And FFA is anti-discrimination. As in the anti-Irish & Ireland sentiments portrayed by some on that MB. Who clearly don't believe themselves to be Irish!

It is their absolute right to define themselves as they see fit - same for me.

Unfortunately, they have capitulated to the myopic notion, expressed by many (including yourself) of what constitutes "Irish".

Equally, it isn't too hard to find "Anti Northern Ireland and British" sentiment on message boards.

Ironically some myopic thinkers claim to be "uniters". Bizarre.