Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[ifk101]

I personally believe that both teams have developed strong and individual identities to the extent that a merger is not workable. The FAI has its pick of players from both sides of the border, so the merits of a merger on a purely sporting argument are very weak. As it is, there are very few current NI internationals that would start in our side - the only NI player that would get in our team is Johnny Evans as a replacement for Kilbane. A quick review of the past 20 years and there's no more than a handful of NI internationals that would have been good enough to make our team. So it's a strong no to any calls for a merger for my part.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Was there ever a "Northern Ireland" cricket team?

Er, No.

[Gather round]

Gather Round, go back and read my posts again on the subject that you refer to above, (you didn't at the time - I wonder why). Then, simply engage your brain and understanding will follow. It's not rocket science!

It's gibberish, not any sort of science, however many times I re-read it.

I think you know I was speaking with reference to a theoretical all Ireland football team. Would Belfast be the preferred home venue? If so, why?

Er, I don't have a preferred home venue for a notional all-Ireland team. The question doesn't arise.

Surely then, if you can support the Ireland cricket team (despite your preference for a NI team), you could support an 'Ireland' football team (theoretically speaking of course)? Would it really be that difficult?

As well as the above (repeated ad nauseam earlier in the thread), it's hardly comparing like with like. As NB says, there's never been a NI cricket team.

[Your team wouldn't be abolished] How so?

Don't play dumb, I've explained on the previous page how any notional team would seamlessly replace the current Southern team.

...you didn't! [go back way a long way with la Presidente]

Oh, aye. We spent many a happy hour discussing her briefs.

you called 3 of the players Englishmen which to me is a nice dig at second generation Irish men and I imagine would be fairly insulting to somebody like Kevin Kilbane

As digs go, it's pretty gentle. Note (as I've said repeatedly above) I'm not suggesting they aren't Irish as well, so I imagine it wouldn't be insulting at all. Every week I hear Mark Lawrenson, another (ex) RoI international from Kilbane's home town commentating on games and routinely describing England (and its national side, sometimes) as 'we' or 'us'. Why not? He's effectively of dual nationality even if he only carries one passport.

I expect that you'd class Iain Dowie and Lawrie Sanchez as Northern Irish rather than a couple of English lads?

No, they're Englishmen who qualified to play for NI. Incidentally Dowie's niece, Natasha Dowie, has just been called up to the England women's side.

the only NI player that would get in our team is Johnny Evans as a replacement for Kilbane. A quick review of the past 20 years and there's no more than a handful of NI internationals that would have been good enough to make our team

Hmm. Us producing only one player of the very highest class (ie, Champs' League regular) in 10 years, isn't quite the same as no-one else good enough to get in your team. Whose last outing included a player without a single top-league game in the position where we have a guy who's played well over 300.

[ifk101]

Hmm. Us producing only one player of the very highest class (ie, Champs' League regular) in 10 years, isn't quite the same as no-one else good enough to get in your team. Whose last outing included a player without a single top-league game in the position where we have a guy who's played well over 300.

In the case of Evans, he is clearly a better player than Kilbane for the left full position in our team. I suppose even George McCarthy is a better option than Kilbane. But the point I am making is there are very few NI internationals now and in the past 20 odd years that are clearly better than our options to the extent that you can say an unified team, on a purely sporting level, would be better and would have performed better than what we have done.

[third policeman]

EG I admire your missionary zeal on behalf of the continuing existence of the NI team, but this debate always seems to lapse into thinly disguised political sniping. You consistently claim the mandate of speaking on behalf of NI supporters, and have also upholded the principle of "choice." There is surely one way that this debate could be resolved once and for all. let's use The Good Friday principle and actually ask the people of both parts of Ireland whether they want one ot two football teams. Now I would be completely happy to accept the result, but I kind of suspect you wouldn't. I feel your argument might be that only real NI suppoters (ie those who would be opposed to this) should have a vote. Why should Northern nationalist ("most of whom dont support NI anyway") or non-football fans have a say in this. "Sure we're all have a great wee time at Windsor park so whats the problem?" Well maybe there isn't a problem, but football is bigger than the limited capacity of Windor Park, it is something with the power to divide or unite, to cause conflict or inspire reconcilliation. For that reason it's totally legitimate for everybody in both jurisdictions to have a say on this.

[Predator]

There's the rub.

Why not allow people who wish to play for Northern Ireland, the CHOICE to play for Northern Ireland?

Your FA have the CHOICE to pick players from throughout the island - why can't you afford others the CHOICE to represent Northern Ireland?

The FAI has its choice of players from the whole island, but as I've said, they wouldn't all want to play for the FAI (for whatever reasons, they're entitled to that), so we don't have an all-island team really. Both teams would cease to exist with an all-island team.

See, I'm not trying to force anything and this is a discussion forum and it's all theoretical. I'm well aware of the widespread lack of desire among NI fans and indeed some RoI fans for the merging of the two international teams on the island, but why not actually consider the realistic positive possibilities of such a thing happening? I see no harm in discussing the merits and vices of the idea.

Er, I don't have a preferred home venue for a notional all-Ireland team. The question doesn't arise.

I think that's a bit of a cop-out GR. Back in the thread I think you said Belfast (I think I thanked that post actually)? If so, why?

As well as the above (repeated ad nauseam earlier in the thread), it's hardly comparing like with like. As NB says, there's never been a NI cricket team.

Yeah, it isn't exactly the same, but still, you can support an Ireland cricket team with some objections.

Don't play dumb, I've explained on the previous page how any notional team would seamlessly replace the current Southern team.

Who knows what would happen? NI fans and officials should make a strong case for the people they represent in the theoretical event of an all-Ireland team instead of flatly denying such an idea the space to grow. The RoI team would still cease to exist too.

Oh, aye. We spent many a happy hour discussing her briefs.

Glad to hear that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

EG I admire your missionary zeal on behalf of the continuing existence of the NI team, but this debate always seems to lapse into thinly disguised political sniping. You consistently claim the mandate of speaking on behalf of NI supporters, and have also upholded the principle of "choice." There is surely one way that this debate could be resolved once and for all. let's use The Good Friday principle and actually ask the people of both parts of Ireland whether they want one ot two football teams. Now I would be completely happy to accept the result, but I kind of suspect you wouldn't. I feel your argument might be that only real NI suppoters (ie those who would be opposed to this) should have a vote. Why should Northern nationalist ("most of whom dont support NI anyway") or non-football fans have a say in this. "Sure we're all have a great wee time at Windsor park so whats the problem?" Well maybe there isn't a problem, but football is bigger than the limited capacity of Windor Park, it is something with the power to divide or unite, to cause conflict or inspire reconcilliation. For that reason it's totally legitimate for everybody in both jurisdictions to have a say on this.

Good shout and even unionist politicians might be persuaded at face value, though all they'd get out of it would be a few brownie points from the wider community.
However, something 'political', under the auspices of sport, would doubtless see the paranoia machine kick into action big time.

Interestingly, on a slight tangent, note Graeme McDowell & Rory McIlroy (of Antrim & Down respectively) are both playing in golf's equivalent of the World Cup, for some place called, er, Ireland.

You might have heard of it?

[Not Brazil]

The FAI has its choice of players from the whole island, but as I've said, they wouldn't all want to play for the FAI (for whatever reasons, they're entitled to that), so we don't have an all-island team really. Both teams would cease to exist with an all-island team.

Perhaps it's because they wish to play for Northern Ireland?

Why don't you stick to players who wish to play your, de facto, 32 County side, and leave those who wish to play for Northern Ireland to make up their own minds?

We hear of Jonny Evans being an integral part of a, singular, fantasy island, team - does it occur to you that Jonny Evans might just be very proud to play for Northern Ireland (as he stated on BBC NI last night), and puts pride in wearing the shirt of his country (Northern Ireland) before qualification?

Interestingly, Evans is a great upholder of his friend, Darron Gibson's, right to play for the Republic - Jonny is a patriotic Northern Irishman, who wishes to play for (and Captain) Northern Ireland.

You guys squealed blue murder when some Northern Ireland fans suggested that if Northern Ireland born players didn't want to play for Northern Ireland, they shouldn't play for anyone.

Now, you're suggesting that if someone doesn't want to play for a fantasy island team, they should be denied the right to have a team at all.

Make your mind up.

[Predator]

NB, I wonder has the question ever been put to Jonny Evans on the topic of an all-Ireland team?

Now, you're suggesting that if someone doesn't want to play for a fantasy island team, they should be denied the right to have a team at all.

I didn't say that.

I don't deny his or anyone else's desire to play for NI, but I wonder if they'd approve of an all Ireland football entity if it were to transpire? I'd imagine a lot of the current players would approve of the idea.

[ifk101]

Who knows what would happen? NI fans and officials should make a strong case for the people they represent in the theoretical event of an all-Ireland team instead of flatly denying such an idea the space to grow. The RoI team would still cease to exist too.

A merger would never be supported by all interest groups. We need to evalute if the merger idea is worth the hassle and to what real benefit. IMO it's not worth the hassle and it offers no real or tangible benefits.

There clearly is quite an anti-merger stance amongst the NI support. We should respect that and realise this is a non-runner.

[Predator]

A merger would never be supported by all interest groups. We need to evalute if the merger idea is worth the hassle and to what real benefit. IMO it's not worth the hassle and it offers no real or tangible benefits.

There clearly is quite an anti-merger stance amongst the NI support. We should respect that and realise this is a non-runner.

We're not going to make it happen on here, but it would surely be no harm to debate and discuss the matter? I respect the NI fans' stance against the idea, but I think it's something which should be discussed nonetheless. Just because a portion of the whole island's population is against the idea, doesn't mean we should stop discussing it, surely?

[Not Brazil]

NB, I wonder has the question ever been put to Jonny Evans on the topic of an all-Ireland team?
I didn't say that.

I don't deny his or anyone else's desire to play for NI, but I wonder if they'd approve of an all Ireland football entity if it were to transpire? I'd imagine a lot of the current players would approve of the idea.

I can assure you that Jonny Evans is more than happy representing Northern Ireland - that was evident in his comments televised on BBC NI last night.

Let me get this right - you think that the majority of our players (the majority of whom wouldn't get near the fantasy island team, (as agreed by posters on here), would approve of their International prospects going down the toilet?

Those players from Northern Ireland who wish to "strengthen" the Republic of Ireland team, are free to do so, going forward. Let it be.

[ifk101]

We're not going to make it happen on here, but it would surely be no harm to debate and discuss the matter? I respect the NI fans' stance against the idea, but I think it's something which should be discussed nonetheless. Just because a portion of the whole island's population is against the idea, doesn't mean we should stop discussing it, surely?

After 22 pages and countless other similar threads? Yes maybe it's time to put this to bed. An united Ireland team would effectively be the current Republic team. The IFA would be forced to move to Abbottstown and games would be played in Dublin. Any possible merger doesn't represent a joining of forces so to speak - it would represent our current team and a token player or two from NI. This isn't acceptable to the IFA or the NI support so along comes the hassle that we just don't need because we'd have different interest groups emerging that aren't all pulling in the same direction. Success at international level with the resources we have demands that everyone is 100% behind the team. This wouldn't be the case with an united team.

[Predator]

I can assure you that Jonny Evans is more than happy representing Northern Ireland - that was evident in his comments televised on BBC NI last night.

I don't dispute that, just as most RoI players are more than happy representing RoI, but I wonder what his opinion on a singular Ireland team is.

Let me get this right - you think that the majority of our players (the majority of whom wouldn't get near the fantasy island team, (as agreed by posters on here), would approve of their International prospects going down the toilet?

Those players from Northern Ireland who wish to "strengthen" the Republic of Ireland team, are free to do so, going forward. Let it be.

I never said a majority, but I'd imagine many players at all levels would be in favour of it. The likes of George Best, Jennings, M.O'Neill and many others have been in favour of it in the past; they must be mad to have such a blatant disregard the wishes of the fans like that...

After 22 pages and countless other similar threads? Yes maybe it's time to put this to bed.

I haven't been a member since 2003, so I haven't seen all these threads. I'm sure there are others like me. You have to wonder why it keeps coming up as a topic of discussion.

An united Ireland team would effectively be the current Republic team. The IFA would be forced to move to Abbottstown and games would be played in Dublin. Any possible merger doesn't represent a joining of forces so to speak - it would represent our current team and a token player or two from NI. This isn't acceptable to the IFA or the NI support so along comes the hassle that we just don't need because we'd have different interest groups emerging that aren't all pulling in the same direction. Success at international level with the resources we have demands that everyone is 100% behind the team. This wouldn't be the case with an united team.

Quite possibly that could be the case and I accept that point, but the case certainly won't be helped by a complete lack of involvement from NI fans and officials whose only contribution to the discussion of the possibility is basically, 'we don't want to', which is fair enough, but surely they can participate in constructive discussion.

[Not Brazil]

I don't dispute that, just as most RoI players are more than happy representing RoI, but I wonder what his opinion on a singular Ireland team is.

I never said a majority, but I'd imagine many players at all levels would be in favour of it. The likes of George Best, Jennings, M.O'Neill and many others have been in favour of it in the past; they must be mad to have such a blatant disregard the wishes of the fans like that...

Shall we ask those who wouldn't have a hope in hell of reaching the fantasy Island XI...ie. most of our players?

The players you mention would all have made a fantasy island XI - the vast majority of our players over the years wouldn't.

Easy to favour something, if it wasn't going to affect your international career.

I am very proud that George Best was buried with his coffin adorned by the flag of the Irish Football Association.

Quite possibly that could be the case and I accept that point, but the case certainly won't be helped by a complete lack of involvement from NI fans and officials whose only contribution to the discussion of the possibility is basically, 'we don't want to', which is fair enough, but surely they can participate in constructive discussion.

You have failed to convince Northern Ireland fans of the merits of a, singular, Fantasy Island team.

The FAI has failed to convince the IFA of the merits of a Fantasy Island team.

It's as simple as that really.

What about that merger between Bohs and Rovers I mentioned earlier?

You know it makes sense.

[ifk101]

Quite possibly that could be the case and I accept that point, but the case certainly won't be helped by a complete lack of involvement from NI fans and officials whose only contribution to the discussion of the possibility is basically, 'we don't want to', which is fair enough, but surely they can participate in constructive discussion.

Why would they? They have nothing to gain from merging. It would be the greatest own goal ever.

Anyways and tbh, I've quite enjoyed reading about NI teams losing again and again and again. I'd miss that if there was a merger.

[Gather round]

But the point I am making is there are very few NI internationals now and in the past 20 odd years that are clearly better than our options to the extent that you can say an unified team, on a purely sporting level, would be better and would have performed better than what we have done

Fair enough, I agree your broad point.

EG I admire your missionary zeal on behalf of the continuing existence of the NI team

I'm sure EG will be flattered next time he checks the thread. Meanwhile, all the other NI supporters on here agree with him.

but this debate always seems to lapse into thinly disguised political sniping

Er, that was clearly the point of the thread starter (and of all the other basically identical threads on the issue). Cliched, often incoherent and occasionally offensive sneers against the NI team and its fans will be answered.

You consistently claim the mandate of speaking on behalf of NI supporters

No-one's claiming any (electoral) mandate; all the NI fans are saying is that, by definition, 100% of us want there to be a NI team. It is- or should be- very easy to grasp.

There is surely one way that this debate could be resolved once and for all

Of course. You (plural) could concentrate on supporting your team and stop trying to abolish ours.

I feel your argument might be that only real NI suppoters...should have a vote

Bizarre analogy. NI supporters have voted through the turnstiles for a century since the FAI broke away. We aren't denying any one else to the chance to support a different team, if they choose. As for any relation to the real World, any imminent follow-up to the Good Friday Agreement might concentrate on slightly more important issues: you know, economic collapse, chronic unemployment, Police accountability, environmental improvements as our city centres lie under water. You know, bread and butter issues like that.

For that reason it's totally legitimate for everybody in both jurisdictions to have a say on this

You and your grandad Charlie have had a say in it since the 1920s, with your own football team to support. In recent years you've achieved a situation where your pool of available players extends throughout Ireland, and well beyond. Your gripes aren't so much illegitimate as irrelevant.

I think that's a bit of a cop-out GR. Back in the thread I think you said Belfast (I think I thanked that post actually)? If so, why?

It was a labored gag (which went over other readers' heads initially). I named Belfast, Dublin and Derry in that order as the acknowledged best venues for an all-Ireland side. Replace with Stormont, Clontarf and Eglinton and you see three er, cricket grounds

The RoI team would still cease to exist too

No it wouldn't.

I don't deny his or anyone else's desire to play for NI, but I wonder if they'd approve of an all Ireland football entity if it were to transpire? I'd imagine a lot of the current players would approve of the idea

It's already transpired. Many/ most of them have had the chance to show their approval, by declaring availibility to play for it instead of NI.

You have to wonder why it keeps coming up as a topic of discussion

There's a small but persistent minority of stirrers about.

Anyways and tbh, I've quite enjoyed reading about NI teams losing again and again and again. I'd miss that if there was a merger

Touche. Talking of neighborly separation, will you be supporting Denmark in the World Cup?

[Not Brazil]

Why would they? They have nothing to gain from merging. It would be the greatest own goal ever.

Anyways and tbh, I've quite enjoyed reading about NI teams losing again and again and again. I'd miss that if there was a merger.

As world minnows, it's exactly that that makes the victories even sweeter - especially against the giants.

[ifk101]

Touche. Talking of neighborly separation, will you be supporting Denmark in the World Cup?

I wouldn't say support but I'll be following their matches.

As world minnows, it's exactly that that makes the victories even sweeter - especially against the giants.

Good for you. I must say I'm very happy to hear that Nigel will be continuing in his role. I have every confidence in his abilities to get the results I want to read about.

[Not Brazil]

I have every confidence in his abilities to get the results I want to read about.

Aye, amongst the disappointments, we'll continue to surprise the "bigger lights" on occassion.

Having perused some of the wild fantasies on here, I'll be considering every time we take the field to be a "victory".