Diarra and Andrews bust-up

[Den Perry]

Chances are that Diarra's probably a bit of a tool but come on lads, sh!t happens on the pitch with emotions high. There's only one way of sticking it up his hole and it's not by breaking his leg!!

Yeah, you're probably right. Though I admit I was one of those that called for blood!! It probably does happen all the time, however if that is the case why such a reaction from Dunne and Andrews?

If it had been an English or indeed a Northern Irish player that said such a thing there would have been uproar I suspect!!

Anybody read Henry say something along the lines of all British teams being hard to beat while talking about the match last Sat??

[DaveyCakes]

**** off you irish ***** you are out.. Thats quiet a remark,, its certainly got me stoked...remember the french are at their heart a spineless weak nation, they were rolled over by the nazis in 1939 70 years later a band of less talented irish players have the chance to roll these arrogant ****s over.. Score first and lets see what they got!!

1940.

[paul_oshea]

I agree with osarusan, lets just pray to god lads that he gets that chance.

ANd i do mean this, even if criticsed to just be able repeat "fcuk you, you french cnut, you're out"

I can only imagine what his reaction would be like. Please god we get the result this country so badly needs.

[lopez]

...
Let me be the first to wish you a long and fruitful career in the BNP.

Or le Front National (or is it le National Front?). Plenty peeps in France wouldn't be too keen on this team including, surprisingly, this lovely lady, Isabella Imperatori. (Sorry can not provide a photo, but I saw her a decade ago on BBC defending le merde Le Pen. Quite a looker if I remember)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...of-Le-Pen.html

[dingbat]

Or le Front National (or is it le National Front?). Plenty peeps in France wouldn't be too keen on this team including, surprisingly, this lovely lady, Isabella Imperatori. (Sorry can not provide a photo, but I saw her a decade ago on BBC defending le merde Le Pen. Quite a looker if I remember)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...of-Le-Pen.html

The fact that some in France say that they have trouble identifying with the team is a reflection of the problems in French society as a whole, witness the riots not so long ago. It does not in any way mean that those players are actually somehow less French than similarly talented players of previous generations, nor should it give anybody here licence to refer to them as an "African B team".

[paul_oshea]

Lopez you could always ride the racism out of her.

[lopez]

Lopez you could always ride the racism out of her.

Le Pen certainly hasn't.

[lopez]

The fact that some in France say that they have trouble identifying with the team is a reflection of the problems in French society as a whole, witness the riots not so long ago. It does not in any way mean that those players are actually somehow less French than similarly talented players of previous generations, nor should it give anybody here licence to refer to them as an "African B team".

If you are comparing players who were not born in France and have not one French grandparent, with players having all four grandparents French born, then you're wrong.

The French team is made up of French citizens. It is not an ethnic team, and FIFA does not work along having national teams based on purely ethnic lines, unless citizenship is based on purely ethnic lines. France is a multi-ethnic state, much the same as every state in Western Europe, including our own, and a good few in the East. These players have every right to represent France. But, I'm sorry, on ethnic lines, to say they are French is like the crowd in Hans Christian Andersen's 'The Emperor's New Clothes' saying the Emperor's wearing the height of fashion.

[dingbat]

If you are comparing players who were not born in France and have not one French grandparent, with players having all four grandparents French born, then you're wrong.

The French team is made up of French citizens. It is not an ethnic team, and FIFA does not work along having national teams based on purely ethnic lines, unless citizenship is based on purely ethnic lines. France is a multi-ethnic state, much the same as every state in Western Europe, including our own, and a good few in the East. These players have every right to represent France. But, I'm sorry, on ethnic lines, to say they are French is like the crowd in Hans Christian Andersen's 'The Emperor's New Clothes' saying the Emperor's wearing the height of fashion.

I appreciate the point you are making, but you can't get much further past the fact that fully ten of the eleven starting team were born in France. After that you go down a very slippery slope, a slope that would be encouraged by many of the more extreme right-wingers in society.

[DaveyCakes]

So Paul McGrath, Chris Hughton, etc. aren't ethnically Irish?

[John83]

So Paul McGrath, Chris Hughton, etc. aren't ethnically Irish?

I thought McGrath had ethnic Irish blood in him. Most of our non-white players have anyway.

I'm not saying it's important, but Zidane for example had two Algerian parents and no French blood, and many of those French-born parents are likewise the children of immigrants and French only by birth. That's the distinction being made above.

[Vermicious Knid]

The only thing the French have got going for them is the fact that they are the only Arab nation not involved or in proximity to a war at the minute.

The lack of the stars and stripes on their jersey is also just a case of 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'.

[osarusan]

I thought McGrath had ethnic Irish blood in him. Most of our non-white players have anyway.

I'm not saying it's important, but Zidane for example had two Algerian parents and no French blood, and many of those French-born parents are likewise the children of immigrants and French only by birth. That's the distinction being made above.

But how do you define French (or Irish) blood? If Zidane married a woman born ir, to ask n France of say...Albanian parents, would the child have no French blood?
How many generations does it take before we say they have French blood?

Or, to ask the question another way, how did those with French blood originally get it?

[John83]

But how do you define French (or Irish) blood? If Zidane married a woman born in France of say...Albanian parents, would the child have no French blood?
How many generations does it take before we say they have French blood?

You're looking for a clean answer on a nebulous subject.

To answer your questions, no such a child wouldn't have any ethnically French blood*, and sufficient generations for the French to intermarry sufficiently that they're no longer ethnically diverse, making for a new definition of 'ethnically French'.

I think you're debating me on semantics when you're really just uncomfortable with the concept of ethnicity because it feels uncomfortably close to eugenics and other racist concepts.

*And anyway, Zidane is married to a Spanish woman.

[third policeman]

THis is all rather dubious stuff, but actually from the time of the Revolution the "French" nation has a civic or republican notion of itself rather than an ethnic one. Like many European nations even before immigration France has been a multi-ethnic nation (German speakers in Alsace, Basques, Catalans, Italian / Provencou speakers in Eastern Provence etc). I am afraid this debate really only has resonance within the agenda of the FN and other racist extremists.

[galwayjames]

I'm just looking forward to some tough tackling early doors from Keitho!!

I clicked on this thread hoping to get some like-minded opinions . What kind of a tool am i???!! (there, I said it)

You're a spanner

[John83]

THis is all rather dubious stuff, but actually from the time of the Revolution the "French" nation has a civic or republican notion of itself rather than an ethnic one.

Interesting - can you back that up? This is in stark contrast to, e.g. Germany which is certainly ethnic (or at least cultural) in its origin - Bismark & dare I say Hitler both used the military to seize portions of other countries with German-speaking populations. Spain likewise has a strong sense of ethnicity, and modern France, Holland and elsewhere have struggled to overcome the association of ethnicity with nationality.

Like many European nations even before immigration France has been a multi-ethnic nation (German speakers in Alsace, Basques, Catalans, Italian / Provencou speakers in Eastern Provence etc).

More as a result of the fortunes of war than any great attachment to those folks as 'French' though, I think.

EDIT: This may be getting off topic, so I'd be happy to continue this element of the discussion via PM if you're interested.

I am afraid this debate really only has resonance within the agenda of the FN and other racist extremists.

It certainly flirts with that. Whatever their ethnicity, most of those players would identify themselves as French, were born there, and have every right to play for their country.

[seanfhear]

Interesting - can you back that up? This is in stark contrast to, e.g. Germany which is certainly ethnic (or at least cultural) in its origin - Bismark & dare I say Hitler both used the military to seize portions of other countries with German-speaking populations. Spain likewise has a strong sense of ethnicity, and modern France, Holland and elsewhere have struggled to overcome the association of ethnicity with nationality.

More as a result of the fortunes of war than any great attachment to those folks as 'French' though, I think.

EDIT: This may be getting off topic, so I'd be happy to continue this element of the discussion via PM if you're interested.

It certainly flirts with that. Whatever their ethnicity, most of those players would identify themselves as French, were born there, and have every right to play for their country.

I hope keith discuss's this with Diarra at length after Ireland are victorious.

I am sure Diarra's opinion on such matters will be of interest.

[sean_irl]

Best thing all of us can do is stick a tenner on Andrews to score tomorrow. He's 28-1 for first goal. He's well capable of doing it, especially now!!

[lopez]

I appreciate the point you are making, but you can't get much further past the fact that fully ten of the eleven starting team were born in France. After that you go down a very slippery slope, a slope that would be encouraged by many of the more extreme right-wingers in society.

It's the elephant in the room. No one want's to talk about it, but everyone is thinking it. That goes for both in France and in Ireland.

So Paul McGrath, Chris Hughton, etc. aren't ethnically Irish?

If you read what I was saying about all four grandparents born abroad with no French connections, you'd find the answer to that question. The same could be said about Barak Obama. First Black American president or second Irish-American president? Trouble is that it isn't just white people who are into classifying anyone with 'one drop' as black, but a hell of a lot of black people too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

One drop of black blood? I'm a soul man FFS!

THis is all rather dubious stuff, but actually from the time of the Revolution the "French" nation has a civic or republican notion of itself rather than an ethnic one. Like many European nations even before immigration France has been a multi-ethnic nation (German speakers in Alsace, Basques, Catalans, Italian / Provencou speakers in Eastern Provence etc). I am afraid this debate really only has resonance within the agenda of the FN and other racist extremists.

Black people in France at the time of the revolution were given citizenship. The notion of race came along in the nineteenth century. As slavery ended and mass immigration entailing a few sailors jumping ship, most of these people's genes dissapeared in the French population as they married white people whose offspring then married more white people etc. Believe it or not, the same thing happened in Britain and Ireland at the end of the eighteenth century.

I hope keith discuss's this with Diarra at length after Ireland are victorious.

I am sure Diarra's opinion on such matters will be of interest.

What that d*ckhead needs to be told, providing this isn't some 'The Sun' job and all he said was 'f*ck off, c*nt, you're out', is that you don't have to be black to be the subject of racism or discrimination.

See you all in Paris.